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Wednesday, 27 March 2024

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"...and might still be read in grade schools for all I know."

Not here in Florida. Didn't you hear, there was no civil war or slavery? At least according to the Florida legislature.

I’m now giggling that it seems now that even the very notion of “punctum” in photography, that is, what typically can be “the punctum” of a photograph, is a subjectively defined concept too. For me, every Eggleston photo that I like is a perfect example of it. “Why does that red ceiling and light fixture strike me so?” “Why is the back of that women’s head, her hairdo, so striking?” “What is it about that toy trike when seen in the full frame?”

I can talk around the reasons why… “the gritty and yet pristine bloodiness of it” “the symmetry” “the story of the trike user’s day or absence that day” etc. but it may exactly be the fact that talking about them isn’t enough. You just wanna point at it and say, “I mean just *look* at that ceiling/hairdo/toy.” Photographs are visual and being struck by something in a photograph can seem odd when you try and describe just why. You feel dumbly visceral.

And then, yeah, I understand that Eggleston’s photography isn’t for everyone. “Is it just me?” You almost feel silly for being struck by the whatever, in many cases. So my reactions themselves are personal.

At least that’s what the concept is for me, and how such photos work for me.

When I look at my older photos, the ones on film that I have kept because I like them, they all seem to have punctum to me. But that's because they are so personal, and I know the story. Like this rather mundane shot of my wife and daughter. I can see something of my wife and daughter that I still see in them now, 25 years later.

And then there are some that just stand out to me because of the overall look, like this snap of a friend that my daughter took with her film camera...

Posts like this are why I come here.
Bravo.

Don’t sell the McLean House photo short. Look again. It has some obvious elements of an interesting accidental modernism. Notice the seven distinct sections of angled fencing at ground level, contrasted with the prominent and even verticals of the porch level, contrasted with the elongated lozenge shapes of the second floor railing, all behind the foreground of evenly spaced trees in receding perspective….

Then there is this photo which I think is one of the outstanding portraits of all times:
https://www.peterfetterman.com/artists/153-arnold-newman/works/33754-arnold-newman-igor-stravinsky-new-york-city-1946/

I agree with Paul. So good. Forget keyboards, car repairs and diets, and please give us more of these posts. You have a discerning eye and a deep apprehension of photography, as well as a lucid way of writing. I want to read more like this. Nothing else on the internet, as far as I know, gives us the satisfaction of reading considered and informed thinking about photography.

Contemporary art photography, to my eyes at least, often has a total lack of punctum. It has to be accompanied by a long and rambling artists statement full of impenetrable art speak to try and make up for it. There, that's my rant for today.

“I think we like characters who are becoming rather than who were and are now known to be done and gone.”

In my retirement I’ve discovered a respect for novels that I’ll call “coming of age” stories. That description is usually applied to tales about people making the transition to adulthood, the process of leaving school and starting work and/of finding a partner but I’ve come to realise that the reason I respond to these stories is that they’re archetypal tales of the issues we all face at various times of our lives. There’s a sense in which every major transition in our life is a coming of age experience and novels about people facing major shifts in changes in their life, whatever there age, are just as much a “coming of age” story as novels about the transition to adulthood.

I think we like characters who are becoming their stories reassure us that it’s a normal human experience, that we do survive the becoming and actually become, at least for a while until we come to our next transition. Becoming may be the quintessential human experience and that is probably the reason why characters who are becoming are so fascinating to us, the fact that they eventually become is reassuring to us.

Personally, I'm not much of a fan of over analysing images. You write beautifully and you think clearly but it still feels to me to be an entirely subjective position. Your writing skill attempts to give your internal feeling some sense of objective reality, of logical justification. But you can't get away from the fact that it is just subjective. Yesterday I had a 1 to 1 advisory session with a Royal Photographic Society FRPS assessor as initial preparation for thinking about my future ARPS programme. One of the things we discussed was my LRPS panel and a selection of other sample photos I sent her. I found it interesting because she kept trying to draw me into saying things about my photos. What do they mean to you? What attracted you to the subject? Why did you shoot it in that way? What do you think the picture will mean to other people. And I felt I had no way to answer those questions and that they were actually irrelevant intellectualising of something quite simple: I shot those pictures because there was something about the subject, the light, the viewpoint, the composition, line, curve, pattern, tones, hues whatever that induced a little frisson of excitement in me, a passing moment of recognition. This is an image! There was no more to it than that, and as the things about the scene that induced that feeling of excitement were entirely personal and inexplicable and likely not shared by a single other person, no attempt at a rational post hoc interpretation is either necessary or appropriate. Yet we insist on attempts at post hoc interpretation of works of art all the time. Sometimes it is better to just say, "here's a picture, that's all it is, there is nothing deeper or special or meaningful about it, either it appeals to you or it doesn't. No need to make stuff up about it"

[What's wrong with subjectivity? Personal subjectivity is part of the definition of the punctum. There's nothing wrong with it. I also agree with your assessor in thinking it's right to encourage you to think about the questions she asks. Because a lot of times (not with you, I don't know about you), the answers to her questions might be, "the colors are pretty; I never thought about what the subject actually is"; and "I'm striving to pander to others' tastes," and "because I thought it looks like the approved pictures I see in museums and books and it conforms to the technical rules we discuss on the forums I frequent," etc. There are many trivial and wrongheaded reasons for taking pictures. She might also know things about the culture you're stepping into that she recognizes you don't know yet, and she's simply encouraging you to be ready to meet the demands you might encounter.

It's worthwhile to think about those questions and I suspect you actually have, because you're pretty eloquent for a guy who doesn't want to talk about pictures; and, rejecting ideas is just as valid in art as accepting them. You're developing your personal approach to your work and your philosophy about it, which is what she's encouraging. Even if you end up at a place where you say, "I consider every aspect of work to be personal and subjective, and I prefer to not say anything about it or try to define it but to leave it all unsaid," that's still a valid position. If it is arrived at thoughtfully.

All I'm doing in this post is giving my personal (yes, completely subjective) reactions to a couple of pictures. I don't need or even (necessarily) want anybody to agree with me. But that's okay, because that's how we encounter aesthetic experiences.

The above is just off the top of my head. Forgive me if this is too coarse a read on your comment or if I'm being too inarticulate. --Mike]

@Paul : quite !

I think you meant “carte postale” (postcard) rather than “carte de visite” (business card).

[No, I meant the type of photograph:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_de_visite

--Mike]

Writing about music [or photography] is like dancing about architecture.

(An earlier version, going back to 1918, according to Wiki: "Talking about music is like singing about economics.")

I believe a photo should have a 'point' to it, and that the content and composition should be taken as normal attributes.

I become disillusioned with my photography. It seems that no one "gets" my pictures, or anyone's pictures, really, mostly. Someone looks at a photograph for three seconds and dismisses it. Sure, if it's a landscape, they see the mountains, the lake, the trees, the clouds; but to me, the landscape has only little to do with mountains, lakes, trees, or clouds. A photograph is about the inner landscape of the photographer. Can't you see that the clouds are thoughts? Can't you see that the tallest mountain represents a sort of Nirvanna? Can't you see that the swirling storm is my swirling inner storm? Can't you see that the sun bursting through the clouds is transcendence?

As the photographer, the punctum seems obvious to me, though not precisely exactly visible except as natural objects. The objects in a photograph are just metaphors for the actual meaning, where the punctum is revealed. If I thought I was merely photographing mountains, trees, lakes, or clouds I wouldn't even bother. The photographer is always the main element of a photograph, the meaning behind the superficial meaning.

I apologize if this only makes sense to me, or it actually makes no sense at all.

I would not assign punctum to either of these photos. They seem less piercing or wounding and more sentimental. I once saw a large print exhibit of pulitzer prize winning photos including the one of a starving child with a buzzard in the background and the one of an electrocuted lineman hanging upside down on the pole. The exhibit could have been titled Punctum.

Some photos 'work' and some don't. Trying to explain why they work (and giving it a fancy sounding name) might be intellectually interesting, but it doesn't help anyone take others that also work.

It's like inspiration, you can't force it. The trick is to recognise it when it turns up and grab it with both hands.

But it won't turn up if you don't point your camera at something.

[I think I would respectfully disagree with "but it doesn't help anyone take others that also work"—because so much of the work of photographing is editing. After you work a subject and have a hundred pictures from that motif or idea, you still have to decide which one is the one. —Mike]

Jeff1000, I wonder of you are more negative than necessary, or useful.

I have had the pleasure of watching as people leaf through my photo books. Some are silent, some engage with me about the pictures. Things that I find particularly interesting in this process are that people often have involuntary physical responses to some photos, often, I think, unaware that they have done so.

I dislike the word punctum, but,s as much talked about here, there is a reaction to pictures that bypasses thought, logic, etc.

The other, related thing is that different people react to different pictures. I recognized three general categories, some attracted attention from everyone, as evinced in physical and/or vocal expression and kept attention for some time.

Then there are the vast middle ground, where some appeal to some people, not others, others appeal to other people.

Then there are, in my experience, the very few that just get flipped by with hardly a glance by almost everyone.

Then again, I had one I had tagged as a full loser, and hoped not to repeat. Visiting a physically distant friend, she instantly broke into tears when she turned to this page.

You say "It seems that no one "gets" my pictures, or anyone's pictures, really, mostly."

In what sort of situation are you experiencing this? I find that people's reaction with photos may have a lot to do with circumstances and interaction with others there.

Late for lunch, worried about what others may think of my taste/reaction, worry about not having the socially or culturally correct understanding of the work, and so on, may easily and often distract or detract from any true reaction.

I've found that people tend to pay attention to physical photographs more than those on a screen. A stack of prints is better. And a book is much better. How much of that is the physicality of handling, ability to move, angle, etc, the simple fact that many people are primarily kinesthetic,
a cultural belief that books are important, or what else, I don't know.

I personally don't think the intellectual meanings you attach to your photos are what attracts, or doesn't, others to them. The attraction comes first, as has been said here, then is followed by the ideas that hope to explain the attraction.

Y'all got some stuff out on the web?

I can't say I'm sure what John means to say in quoting the old saw about dancing and architecture, but the expression is generally meant as a put down, as if writing about architecture [or photography] were a pointless waste of time. I object. In my opinion, it’s no more pointless than writing about love or family or hopes or dreams or history or politics or anything else. It's not easy to do well and meaningfully, but it's hardly pointless.

Hello Moose! Thanks for your sharing your experience.

I have a dozen landscapes on Flickr:

https://flic.kr/ps/42Pjuy

Don't know about punctum, but I loves me some louche dishabille!

A note on the term punctum. Before musical notation was invented, plainsong used a system called "neumes" which were graphical marks used as a tool to remember the shape of a musical piece (see neumonic). One of these marks was called a "punctum" or point and was represented as a dot. This dot evolved into our present-day musical note.

There are two possible Greek roots to neume, one for breathe and the other for sign both of which are applicable. It is interesting that Barthes used a term from musical tradition and also one that inferred intimacy and (pre-modern) semiotics.

I don't use the term "punctum" myself, mostly because I haven't paid close enough attention to it to convince myself that I have a fairly stable understanding of what I think it means, and then that I also am not sure the other uses out there are particularly consistent with each other (or, if I had one, with my own idea of the word).

But, having spent the weekend shooting a few thousand shots, and sorting more than twice that many (had another photographer covering the science fiction convention also), I feel more than ever that only a very occasional documentary photo has even a small spark of interest, even if many of the others are useful documentation. I don't declare that this first sign of sparkle is the edge of punctum slipping in, since I'm not convinced I know what people mean at all specifically with that word.

But it might be. Or at least, it's what I look for to assign a rating one step above "minimally technically competent and shows something" (which is 2 stars in my scheme, so the first sign of sparkle gets to 3; 4 stars is rare, and 5 is for the good portfolio shots).

"Spark[le]" is nice because it's imprecise. Now, taking on trying to characterize this quality (or that quality; they may not be the same) usefully is a worthwhile endeavor, but it looks a lot like work, so I use less-precise terms.

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