Open Mike: Are Ye Confused?

A little discursion onto the subject of "ye" this morn:

To begin with, ye as it exists in English is two words, not one. In one, the Y replaces thorn, which was a letter in the Old English, Gothic, Old Norse, and Old Swedish alphabets and still exists in modern Icelandic. Thorn has been completely replaced by "th" in English now. Early printers replaced thorn with a Y, which they considered close enough, and used "y^e" for the, "y^t" for that, and "y^s" for this. So one meaning of "ye" is simply "the," and is properly pronounced "the." So when you see "Ye Olde Shoppe" or some such affectation, it's actually pronounced "the old shop." Which isn't very exciting, but there ye are.

...Which brings us to the second meaning of ye, which means the same thing as "you," plural. It's an archaism that carried over—for a while, anyway—from Old English, which used separate words for "you" when applied to one person, two people, or many people...or, in some cases, to someone of high rank, as in the so-called "royal we" (in Latin, the pluralis majestatis). "Ye" generally meant the same thing as "y'all" or "you guys" in modern English-American speech, and was pronounced "you" (or minimized to something like "yuh." Say "...so now you know" casually, quickly, with "you" de-emphasized, and you'll probably be within harrumphing distance to how "ye" was spoken).

When we say it as "yee," we're engaging in what's called a spelling pronunciation, by which the pronunciation of a word gradually shifts to the way it looks like it should be pronounced; for example when Versailles Road in Lexington, Kentucky, is pronounced "ver-SALES," startling French people and Québécois, or when people pronounce the silent "n" in kiln (real potters are mysteriously divided between "kiln" and the older pronunciation "kil"). Thus, the King James Bible's "judge not, that ye be not judged" should be read out loud simply as "judge not, that you be not judged." Modern translations all use you, as for instance the New International Version's "do not judge, or you too will be judged." As Popeye used to say, faskinatin'.

Finally, Ye is the name of the person who used to be named Kanye West. It's not what he "goes by"; it's not what he's calling himself now; it's his new legal name, as decreed in Los Angeles Superior Court by...er, Judge Court. Really, that's her name. He pronounced Kanye "CON-yay," so Ye is pronounced like the last syllable of that, thus: yay. It was his nickname for years among his friends and peers in the rap community. Interestingly, "Ye" as a name looks like it might fall victim to spelling pronunciation, meaning that some people whose only exposure to him is reading disturbing things in the news might start saying it "yee."

So there you have it: "ye" is two different words and is pronounced either "the" or "you," and "Ye" in the former K. West's case is a whole real legal name and is pronounced "yay."

So now ye know.

Mike

Featured Comments:

David Mackenzie: "Y’all is actually singular. The plural is 'all y’all.' FWIW."

Marcus Peddle: "I use 'ye' (yee) for second person plural because I'm from the Island of Newfoundland where the language got stuck in time in some ways. 'Youse' is an alternative to 'ye' in some parts of the island. I sometimes slipped when speaking to groups of students in my English as a Foreign Language classroom and asked things like, 'Are ye finished the activity?' Interestingly, they always understood what I mean, probably because I looked at all of them while saying it."

Richard Parkin: "On reflection, I wonder why ye would necessary to distinguish the plural of you. Thou (tha’) is still widely in use at least in this neck of the woods (Yorkshire, UK)."

Comments

[Sal Santamaura]

It matters not what his legal name is. I always have and always will refer to him, as well as the monsters he supports/touts, with appellations unsuitable for your blog. When bothering to refer to them at all.

[Rusty]

These 2 posts could be required reading for all English Majors, let alone photo dogs

[Mike Chisholm]

Kiln? I had no idea! Despite operating one for an entire year as a secondary school art assistant. It should have said!

But pronouncing "primer" as "primmer" and "herb" as "'erb" are still hilarious to us non-Americans... Oh, ye guys!

Mike

[...But both of those are correct, and each is the older pronunciation. The British gave in to "spelling pronunciation" on "herb" and quit the good fight. As for "primer," don't confuse it with paint! --Mike]

[Herman Krieger]

It is said, that Picasso borrowed many ideas from photos on African postcards.

I'm curious what ideas anyone would get from my photos.

[Chuck Albertson]

Stick with "youse" (works as singular or plural), otherwise The Online Photographer will be picked up by a lot of search engine queries for the rapper Ye.

[KP]

The thorn remains in some middle English too, mainly towards the beginning of the period and in some Northern dialects (the Pearl Manuscript is a good example).

Early printers also made other substitutions, such as 'f' for 's', which writers exploited to great effect, for example in 'The Flea' by John Donne:

' Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deniest me is;
It sucked me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea our two bloods mingled be;'
(Lines 1-4)

The meaning is also there implicitly, of course, but it is a shame we lose Donne's rather on-the-nose joke in modern printing.

[Bob Johnston]

I am amazed at your knowledge of language Mike, especially for an American:) Please don't take that last sentence seriously. I learned a lot from that. Seriously, thanks.

[Herman Krieger]

About 'Y', we can just ask 'Why'?

[Richard Parkin]

I always understood that the ‘creative’ use of y by printers was because it saved them from confusing the two different th sounds that were denoted by separate letters in Old English. Usually called thorn and eth I think. But I’m not sure that is in disagreement with anything you wrote.

Kilns are used in several other industries besides ceramics ;-) .

[Terry Letton]

I’m afraid despite all efforts to universalize by the academically inclined that like politics, all pronunciation is local