Ed. note: These are so late I figured I'd give them their own post. Sorry for the delay! The links and suggestions kept sending me down rabbit holes.
Here's the original post: How To REALLY Fix the Menu Problem, from this past Thursday.
JOHN B GILLOOLY: "I think that sounds great. It would also really familiarize the new owner with all of the capabilities of the camera. Most people, myself included, usually only scratch the surface of some of the tech innovations within the camera."
Bruce Bordner: "I've done things like this, and it starts out simple. The camera companies could easily do a setting-setting app or interactive website. However, I think what you really want/need is Thom Hogan in an app, with a few others to answer 'why would I need that?' Demos of effects would be great...now we're talking some real money with AI and gotta have blockchain, bro! It's still worth a start, but I think it has to start with the camera designers. They have to compete and cooperate with cell phones anyway. Why not add some image processing in your phone.... Now you got me going dang it!"
Malcolm Myers: "I've basically had similar thoughts for years: set your camera up on your computer. Want a faux-Leica? Turn everything off and shoot! Want your own menus? Great, set them up! Want different profiles for different situations? No problem! Two bodies? Make them the same! I'm amazed no-one's done it."
Speed: "There is a very large camera company which also manufactures printers. These printers are set up and controlled by users' personal computers. My experiences with printer setup has been...not good. The last thing I want in this world is having this or any other camera company writing more software to 'help' set up my camera or anything else. Their user manuals are bad enough. Eventually some camera manufacturer will do it. It will be painful and costly. In time it will become the norm but I'll wait for version three.
"As a software developer friend (I don't hold it against him) often reminds me, 'Software is hard.'"
Keith: "This is actually a well thought out concept, and could be carried over to many other items as well. How many off us still struggle with programming the VCR to record 'Sanford and Son'? Yes I'm being a bit sarcastic there, but I recall VCR's as being one of the first consumer items that was widely regarded as a bit of a user interface vs. user manual nightmare. Working in the field of industrial automation, I see this with many of the newer electronic components. From photo-eye sensors that have multiple pages of programming options, to basic control modules that require a full Ethernet setup for that device plus anything connected to it. I recently installed a small temperature controller (about the size of a four-pack of 120 roll film) that had nearly a 400-page manual. Companies that recognize this and implement a program to bridge the gap between their products and end users' understandings will have an edge on their competitors."
Robert: "A great idea Mike. Sign me up. There are examples of this in other technologies. For example, Logitech has a 'lead you through it' app for setting up their all-in-one remotes. You then download the setup to the device. It's not the world's best software, but it's better than the alternative."
Peter Wright: "This is such an obvious idea that I keep wondering why it has not been done. It would be I believe a major selling feature for a large part of the buying public. It could even have kept me using the Olympus EM-1 Mark II."
Kirk Tuck: "Or you could just buy into a system with a very well-designed menu system. The Leica SL2 is a joy to configure. It reinforces the idea that Olympus and Sony menus are first translated from Martian and then to Plutonian and only, finally to a human language. The one flaw with your idea is the need to have a computer just to be able to initially access your camera. We should be going the other direction and try to figure out more and more how not to go to the computer first. Leica; three buttons and a joy stick. That's it. Check it out if you are looking for simplicity in an interface. And a very logical menu."
JH: "I suggested this to several camera company reps in 2003 when I bought a Nikon D100 and again after buying an Olympus Micro 4/3 camera in 2010. The Oly U.S. rep I corresponded with told me they never passed suggestions along to the factory because they had been told that they did not want to get sued by somebody who claimed their idea was stolen. Actually I suspected the real reason was the NIH syndrome—not invented here."
Mike replies: Years ago I made some detailed suggestions to a hi-fi manufacturer. The VP (there were only a few principals at the company) entered into an involved discussion with me as to why they would never take my suggestions, with several rounds of long back-and-forth emails as I tried to persuade him that my ideas were good ones. He reported back to me about the reactions of others in the company, including engineers.
A year later, the company implemented all of my suggestions exactly as I had outlined them. When I contacted my 'friend' the VP to express my pleasure, to my astonishment he insisted he had never heard of me before, that our correspondence had never taken place, and that their actions were independent, were developed completely in-house, and could not possibly have had anything to do with me. I felt like I was being gaslighted! When I mentioned this odd development to friends in business, it was explained to me that they were probably afraid I would want to be paid if they acknowledged me. I had never asked for pay and I never had any expectation of payment, but it must be a problem for companies.
Anyway I don't do that any more.
David Dyer-Bennet: "I would never consider buying a camera that depended on an external website for configuration! The site might not last as long as the camera. Maybe, as a local app, taking advantage of the greater power and space on a computer compared to the camera; that could work. Also doesn't freeze out people working far away from Internet access."
Adam Lanigan: "I think there would also be a ton of value in your approach to the camera company as well, as this approach would really allow them to understand the features their customers actually use, how they set up their cameras, level of experience, how often they change that setup later on, etc., etc."
John Krumm: "Still sounds complicated! I would like my menus to look like Hasselblad's do now."
Alex Mercado: "'We are sorry, but the page you are looking for cannot be found. Click here to browse our latest selection of cameras.' I can't help but think one would vehemently regret such a solution, the very moment your camera's menus-on-a-website returns a 404 error."
Ed Hawco: "Mike, you might recall that I suggested essentially this on this very blog in a comment in October 2011. Specifically: 'Self-configurable menus. Not by jerking around with the buttons on the camera back, but by uploading a configuration file to your computer where a nice user-friendly GUI lets you drag & drop menu items around until you have menus that make sense to you. You can bury (or even remove) all the silly functions you don't care about and arrange the frequently used ones at the top where you can find them easily. Re-download to your camera and bingo, customized menus.'"
Mike replies: I wouldn't be surprised if that's where I got the idea! Could have happened. After moderating ~250,000 comments, I've learned a huge amount from others here. And by the way, many of your comments over the years have been great ones.
Scott Abbey: "This sort of user interface has been in use for many years in other fields. For instance, I use a multi-effects pedal board which allows me to have different guitar effects—reverb, equalization, compression, and many others. While the one I now use (a Line 6 Helix) has a pretty robust on-device UI, it also has a PC app which makes it even easier to configure, and it also lets you store sets of configurations which you can load as needed—your settings for a wedding gig, and another set for that thrash metal band you also play in. Why camera manufacturers have never done this is beyond me. It ain’t rocket science."
Mike replies: Speaking of which, the other day a reader called ghmcs recommended Gary Friedman's series of guides to Sony cameras—for instance this one about the A6100 and A6600 (search "Friedman Archives" on Amazon for others). Anyway, Gary Friedman literally used to be a rocket scientist! :-)
Sroyon: "What a great idea. Could go even further (though I don't know if it's feasible in terms of computing power) and six months later, let you run an analysis of the metadata in your Lightroom gallery or whatever other archive, coming up with suggestions like 'You haven't used X in six months, do you still wish to keep it in your menu options?' or 'You appear to use Y frequently, do you want to assign it to a custom button?'"
Ed. note: The following two comments came in one right after the other, just as you see here, no foolin':
Joseph Reid: "Fantastic idea! You could store the settings on a card or just tether the camera for the setup routine. I wonder what Thom Hogan would say about how likely it is that camera makers would do this."
Thom Hogan: "I've been advocating something different for years (decades?). That something different is 'named settings files' that can be saved/loaded. You could supplement that with a computer/tablet/phone application that creates/manages such files, but it's not necessary. Why isn't it necessary? Because there's a huge ecosystem out there that would develop and distribute such files. I'm finishing up a book (!) on setting up a Sony A1. I could easily provide some named settings files if only Sony allowed it. ;~) "
Peter: "This is the best post / idea that you have had in the many years that I have been reading your blog. Well Done."
Harry B Houchins: "Brilliant idea, but sadly impractical...."
Thanks to you if you left any comment, 'Featured' or not! (I'm going to dispense with the end matter on this post, as it's not really a separate post. I'm sure there will be comments on this; should I then do Featured Comments on these Featured Comments? Talk about rabbit holes....)
—Mike the Ed.
That reminds me, the Fuji X-Raw software does allow you to do this sort of, but only with the film simulation settings. It's not really made to simplify the menu, but to store settings on the computer. You can store as many "recipes" as you want on your computer, and then when X-Raw is connected to your camera, you can load new film simulation settings into your camera (up to seven in the latest models). So this covers contrast curve, sharpness, noise reduction, white balance, DR setting, saturation, base film emulation (Astia, Chrome, etc), clarity, and grain.
Posted by: John Krumm | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 10:40 AM
I have a Garmin smart watch. Some of the features are configurable on the watch. Others require a smartphone app and a Garmin website login. After I deleted the phone app, those features were no longer accessible.
So be careful what you wish for.
Posted by: DavidB | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 12:45 PM
Why not post the comments and go down the rabbit holes later? :(.
Posted by: Richard Parkin | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 12:47 PM
Comments from an Epson scanner owner building on the problem of supporting those devices for ten to 15 years. Epson barely keeps up with the updates on their scanners. If they can't/won't do it will camera companies? One they have to support Windows and macOS, and maybe Linux. Two, those OSs are constantly being updated. Three, Epson has many printers, scanners and other devices. A lot of work with a hard to define payoff. Apple does a pretty good job, but they mostly have to deal with their own eco-system. Although they have to keep up with changing phone services, WiFi, Ethernet, regulations, security, etc.
A long way to say that such a computer driven system has to be secondary to in camera set-up as hard as that is.
Most companies haven't figured out how to write a manual, much less a multi-platform computer program.
A great idea, but call me a pessimist.
Posted by: Greg S | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 01:56 PM
Patent pending.
😀
Posted by: JimF | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 03:48 PM
I wish that using my iPhone, I could program and configure my digital cameras.
Posted by: Sid | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 04:51 PM
Hi Mike,
Re the rabbit hole of comments and featured comments, you Featured a comment that I made along similar lines back here:
https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2017/12/more-imaginary-cameras.html
Obviously, as a photographer I agree whole-heartedly. However, other commenter’s points about the difficulty of implementing this does give one pause for thought. ‘Be careful what we wish for’ is an apt warning. We’re assuming that the camera manufacturers would implement want we want properly. We’re asking for a work-around to them not implementing in-camera menus properly - if they’d done it properly in the first place, we’d be finding something else to whinge about publicly.
Therefore, at best we could expect a half-arsed website for designing our own menus. A half-arsed work-around is not a proper solution - but at least it would give us something else over which to gnash our teeth :)
Posted by: Not THAT Ross Cameron | Saturday, 15 May 2021 at 11:08 PM
Yes beware what you wish for. You pay extras for software on you Tesla which Tesla feel entitled to remove when the car is sold on making the second owner pay all over again despite he having already
paid a premium for buying a high specced car
Posted by: Thomas Mc Cann | Sunday, 16 May 2021 at 02:52 AM
I fail to see the problem with (Sony) camera menus. For me it is "problem" that lasts one day, or, at the most, a weekend, and only when the camera is new to me.
Having played around with film cameras for half a century I know what I want a camera to do for me.
My A7 has nine directly accessible buttons that I can "program" and a dozen functions that can be reached by pressing the "fn" button.
When I got the camera I went through the menus from the first to the last page and noted what functions were interesting to me. That was roughly 20 function. I then selected which ones I wanted under a button and which I wanted on the "Fn" menu, and programmed the camera accordingly.
I have not used the menus since then, and I still have a free spot on the "fn" menue.
(The manual for my car is a real p-i-t-a compared to the camera manual.)
[But are you certain you're aware of everything your camera can do? --Mike]
Posted by: Christer Almqvist | Sunday, 16 May 2021 at 06:39 AM
Mike wrote after the Christer comment......
"[But are you certain you're aware of everything your camera can do? --Mike]"
Maybe not. But maybe he is aware of everything HE wants from it.
I personally don't really care about most stuff on my DSLRs.
I use most digital cameras just like a film camera. I definitely use exposure compensation a lot, so it must be easily accessible.
I also have one camera that is permanently set to black and white only. One camera one lens one color one year (although now it has been three years)
All my real digital cameras are set to produce negatives! (er, that would be raw)
Posted by: James | Sunday, 16 May 2021 at 10:02 AM
I take it you didn't email your previous conversation back to the hi-fi exec to... kindly refresh his memory. I'm sure he would've been more than appreciative!
I understand why he denied it all, and almost admire the outright audacity, nonetheless- despicable, inexcusable adult or even professional behavior.
Posted by: Stan B. | Sunday, 16 May 2021 at 02:11 PM