A Small Controversy

A small controversy concerning a great photographer who apparently (if the stories are to be believed) quite often rubs people the wrong way.

I liked the comment by "John"—"It’s clear to me that unpaid internships function as affirmative action programs for the already privileged." Seems to me the decent thing to do would be to make sure your unpaid interns at least get some face time and a personal recommendation out of the gig. Especially if you're going to work 'em hard. Maybe that's just me.

Reminds me of this piece, from just about a year ago now. I'm not saying it pertains. I'm not saying it doesn't.

Mike
(Thanks to Stan Banos)

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Featured Comment by John Camp: "I think Nachtwey is a great photographer, maybe the best there is today. He might be a jerk, but maybe not—you really can't tell from this ad, because you don't know who wrote it, or exactly what their motives were. I can think of a lot of reasons the ad would have been written this way, that have nothing to do with Nachtwey's personality.

"In my experience, both from reading and from personal contact, there's a 'jerk' aspect to almost every famous artist, because famous artists are people who get their way. That's why they're famous: they actually do stuff, instead of sitting around complaining about why they couldn't do it. There's a certain necessary hardness of personality in people who insist on doing things.

"What, basically, is the difference between an unpaid internship with somebody like Nachtwey and going to college, except that you don't pay tuition? Does anybody think you'd learn more in college? Frankly, if I were a young photographer or post-processing specialist, I'd give my left nut for this internship, and I'd find a way to get it. Why would I care if Nachtwey is a jerk? The internship is about me, not about him.

"I don't know. This is starting to sound too defensive—by me, of Nachtwey, because I think his work is so good. But I really think these attacks on him are absurd. I can pretty much guarantee that the whiners on the other blog won't make it as photographers, because they are practicing what they do best—whining. Potentially good photographers would shrug and get on with it."

Mike replies: If whining and revenge actually helped anybody improve their own work or their standing, then there would be lots of people climbing that ladder. I have an "enemy" I made (inadvertently) through TOP. I have a policy that I don't allow people to propose themselves for my "Random Excellence" feature, for the good reason that too many people would propose themselves if word got around that I responded to that. Most people can take this in stride. So this one guy proposed himself, and I didn't feature his work. That apparently so grievously wounded his ego that he has engaged in an extended campaign to insult me in return—he has really worked very hard at it, for a long time (well over a year now).

After the most recent incident, I actually felt sorry for the guy. What I thought was, it's too bad for him that running me down doesn't help make him any better. He's just chosen a bad strategy, is all—a bad strategy for sticking up for himself and his work—and he doesn't seem to know it; he's expended a lot of time and energy on a project that doesn't benefit him even if it succeeds. Because no matter how well or often he insults me, he still sucks. Kinda sad for him, eh?

Featured Comment by Ken N: "Would I sign on as in intern under that criteria? Before doing so, I'd want to see a track record of all previous interns to see how successful they became as a result of the experience.

"I worked the recording industry for a number of years and internships are the norm there. Everybody starts out running the coffee pot and picking up the pizza. But fortunately, even the lowest of the low get opportunities to move up and establish relationships with the clients. If you aren't lazy or a jerk, you can usually move up the food chain pretty quickly.

"I have no sense that the same system would work for this particular photographic internship. This guy just comes across as a user.

"What I want to know is what labor and tax laws are being violated? Technically, the intern may be a contractor with an IRS-recognized 'day rate.' The 'employer' could possibly be on the hook for paying taxes on this unearned income.

"Can O' Worms?

Mike replies: I wish I'd taken your advice. The one assisting experience I had—working for a high-profile studio advertising photographer—was the result of sending the guy a letter, cold. I had no experience as an assistant, so I was surprised that this resulted in my getting hired full-time. I later learned why—the guy treated his assistants horribly, and none of the established assistants in the city would work for him!

Much later, I went to a party where a number of local assistants were also in attendance, and a number of them were wearing T-shirts that said, "I SURVIVED ------- --------" (the pro's name, which I'm not going to repeat). Turns out one assistant who'd been regularly ripped to shreds had made one for himself, and other assistants had requested their own, so he made a bunch of them and passed them out.

(I don't want to mention his name because he wasn't that bad a guy, he just had the unfortunate habit of venting his own stress during shoots by screaming at his assistants—for anything, or for nothing. It actually cost him business, too, because some art directors were made very uncomfortable by it and didn't like to work with him. I talked to one AD who mentioned that he never took clients to shoots at his studio.)

But even so, it was a great learning experience for me. I wouldn't do it again, but I'm glad I did it once.

Featured Comment by Brian White: "While I accept many of John Camp's points about the quality of Natchwey's work and the jealous complainers, I feel there is more here at stake. Mr. Natchwey has placed himself in a position of being more than just a talented artist. He has taken a social/political stand and has attained a level of influence as a result. I feel that this ad compromises him in my eyes. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. But I hold someone in this kind of role to a higher standard. You should live what you preach. If he was a fine art photographer, or a sports photographer, for example, I believe I would see this differently."

Featured Comment by Erlik: "I'd be more sympathetic with JN Studio if it wasn't for the requirements. 'Advanced Photoshop skills' with layers and masks. Right. Like the skills grow on trees. 'An understanding of film scanning preferably on Imacon scanners.' Right. Like people working on $10K-20K film scanners grow on trees. 'Daily workflow can range from assisting with printing/toning to studio managerial tasks.' Right. Managerial tasks. From an intern.

"This reminds me of a personal experience a couple of years ago. A girl was looking for a job and came to me for advice. There was this position with an NGO, had the glorious-sounding title of executive secretary. It would have included the regular secretary stuff. And working the accounts. And organising their projects. And translating. And working on building their website. And so on and so forth, I forgot all the details. AND all of that for about $400 per month.

"I told her not to drop it, but to kick it as far away as she could. She got in a huff cause, she said, not everybody can be picky about the jobs they take particularly if they don't have the experience.

"Fine, if you want to be exploited, be exploited. But at least find someone who will pay you enough money for that. Cause the only experience you'll get from a job like that is the experience of trying to soothe your nerves.

"JN Studio simply asks way, way, way...way too much for a non-paying intern job."

Mike adds: It's true what you say: traditional intern jobs are for people with no experience (I had none, when I started assisting), and certainly managing would never be one of the requirements to get the position!

On the other hand we might also need to consider the non-remunerative remuneration, if you will...because for someone, perhaps a resumé item from JN Studio with all of those tasks listed on it would be, as they say, priceless.

Featured Comment by Hugh Crawford: "For what it's worth, in NYC there are hundreds if not thousands of public high school students who meet all those qualifications, not to mention all the students in art schools and college programs. I know some middle schoolers who are qualified. It almost sounds like the course description or even the prerequisites for a mid-level class. By New York standards, advertising a position like this is much more democratic than just using word of mouth among friends of friends or restricting applicants to a particular school's program. Remember, there are thousands of people who pay tuition for a pale approximation of this, probably within walking distance of his studio."

Featured Comment by swr: "Back in the 1990s, the magazine The Baffler ran a story on how unpaid internships are precisely what 'John' says they are, affirmative action for the rich. It's worth looking up and reading.

"The comparisons between the financial industry and the 'glamor industry' are illuminating and deceptive. The important thing isn't the money. It's the way both work as social filters to keep out the working class.

"To take Nachtway's job, you have to be able to support yourself in NYC without pay.

"You could live in NYC on the pay you get in a financial industry internship, but the financial industry won't hire you as an intern unless you've been to the 'right' college, and that means you've already shown your parents were able to support you for four years for $30,000 or $35,000 a year.

"But at least in the financial industry, you get a future. There are always going to be banks.

"If you work for Nachtway, you're working for free to get 'experience' in an industry that's dying. Print publications are closing down. Video and blogs are more important than still photography. Journalism is in transition.

"By far the most important photojournalism in the 2000s was the Abu Ghraib torture photographs. And they were done by a few working class soldiers with cell phones. No Nachtways and no Sarah Lawrence or Rhode Island School of Design grads in sight.

Featured Comment by Jim Richardson: "Jim can afford to pay minimum wage...and he should.

"Now on to 'John's' greater point: 'unpaid internships are affirmative action for the already privileged.' Exactly! Those of us who have been in the field for a long time can cite a number of examples of 'trust-fund babies,' photographers for whom photography need not be a paying career and can therefore afford to indulge their taste for the exotic world.

"Perhaps some of these younger trust-fund babies will apply for Nachtwey's internship. The young assistant who can afford to work for Nachtwey for free will get a great boost into the greater world of photography. If they can afford the luxury it will be part of their ticket into the inner sanctums of photojournalism. Some of the young assistants who apply for this job will probably save and scrape in order to take the unpaid position. But I suspect others will have the bill paid for them by wealthy parents anxious that their children have every opportunity to follow their dreams.

"But as 'John' implied, the poor kid with talent may not get to have dreams. For them 'dreams' are unaffordable luxuries."

Featured Comment by JonK: "Having known interns who have worked for Nachtwey, and having met him on several occasions in various hot spots, I think there are a few different sides to him. Both interns I'm familiar with worked with him for a period of time, then quit/were fired after his unreasonable demands about print quality, etc. And I mean unreasonable in the sense of unattainable results that he was looking for from a 35mm negative.

"One can look at "War Photographer" to see how one darkroom tech fared with him.

"On the other hand, there is not a more generous photographer in the field. He is more than willing to share information, food, or even just a ride. He has repeatedly put his own life on the line for other photographers and he is often there with a word of encouragement in some of the world's darkest places.

"How these two sides of him line up is for someone else to figure out, but I think there is some truth somewhere in the middle."

Featured Comment by Enrique: "I've occasionally worked for Jim. The hourly rate he paid me was about what I got working at my University Library 20 years ago. Although he's never been anything but professional and courteous to me, I do get the feeling he thinks I charge too much. I consider it karmic balance for for the time I've spent at ad agencies. His regular staff—young people dedicated to photojournalism—were paid about the same.

"The skills level he asks for is not unusual in NYC. I could throw a rock down the street and hit five guys who are 'Photoshop experts.' I may even have taught some of them. Film scanning is getting to be a lost art, but you don't need to know every trick in the book, just learn to scan Jim's film Jim's way. After all, it's not a wet-mount drum scanner, just an Imacon.

"Which should give people a hint: Hasselblad bought Imacon in 2004. The scanner is older than that. Nearly all the equipment was provided by sponsorship. My memory of Jim's studio is of a poorly heated flat filled with hard-working people, a tiny fridge, and a microwave. His ad should require applicants to have wool caps and fingerless gloves too. The bathroom was in the basement of the building next door. There just isn't a lot of spare money in Jim's work; it all goes into the assignment.

"Consider the cost of covering a global story like this.

"Jim shoots stories that have to be told because they are so often ignored.

"Have you seen many ads featuring Jim's work? Salgado has Illy coffee, McCurry is seen in Dow Chemical. Both have beautiful books and postcards and posters for sale. Any of you bought Deeds of War or Inferno for your loved ones this Christmas?

"Since he was injured in Iraq, he's moved away from front-line coverage to places where he won't have to run from flying bullets. Nice, comfy, easy gigs like African AIDS hospices, Siberian prisons, amputee wards in Kabul. Not to mention amputee wars at US Veterans hospitals.

"His ad for unpaid interns doesn't outrage me. It fill me with pity."

Comments

[Chuck Kimmerle]

Unpaid internships used to be mean that newly acquired knowledge and experience would more than make up for the lack of monetary remuneration. Now, however, it more often than not simply means free labor.

The sad thing is that some poor sap, desperate for a recognizable name to add to his resume, is going to take this position in the hopes the time spent will catapult him/her into a new career.

Good luck with that.

p.s. Mr Nachtwey, my sister is getting married this summer and doesn't have much money for a photographer. Any chance you could come over and snap a few pix. She can't pay you, but you'll have her undying gratitude. What time shall we expect you?

[Brian White]

I see Natchwey in a whole new light with this advertisement. It's spoiled the whole social justice thing for me.

[Ken Tanaka]

I do not know James Nachtway and have never met him. Hence, I've no opinion of him beyond his photography which I find quite engaging in a documentary sort of way.

With that as background, I find it remarkable that a stream of mostly anonymous people who also do not know Mr. Nachtway have no reluctance to hold forth on his character in this internship solicitation post. Judging by the language (I'm being generous in even calling some of those posts "language") and style it looks like most of this mess is dripping down from the "fu*k-you-I'm-great-and-entitled" generation.

Mike, I think it might have been a mistake to shine a light on this 3rd party's blog. It's a mess.

[James Bullard]

Reminds me of one of my grandmother's sayings, "handsome is as handsome does."

[Carl Mosher]

Short version: quality of photographic work does not correlate with quality of teaching or employee management.

An internship can only be as good as the soul of the person you work for. Learning comes through your connection your teacher, experience comes from participating with your group. Everything else is just getting better through growing up, or picking up tricks you could learn from a book. Talent never rubs off.

Is this internship unjust? Probably, given how expensive NYC is, and how unlikely the internee is to get useful references. Many people have pointed out that this is a bad deal, it's not unlike a kerfuffle in the SF writing world right now. Scalzi, a successful author, pointed out that a new magazine was paying dreadfully bad rates, and that this was a bad deal for any writer. It's not worth it, not even for the
'experience', he said. This sounds quite similar. There is ongoing whining about how this is terribly unfair to new writers.

Are unpaid internships unjust generally? Yes, but the world is unjust. The rich get richer because they have more resources to work with.

How could it be done right? Joel Sapolsky has a good model for his software company. Which, incidentally, is based in Manhattan. Quote: We always give our interns a big project working on real, shipping software. For example, in 2005, all four of our interns teamed up to build a completely new product from the ground up. By the end of the summer, they had launched Fog Creek Copilot to paying customers.

It's a paid internship, btw:
Our internship program includes a great salary, free housing, free lunch, and free weekly events, like Yankees games, a boat trip around Manhattan, walking tours, museum trips, Broadway shows, movie openings, a trip to the Hamptons, and parties.

Despite the unfairness of the rich getting richer, they have one moral advantage: they can pay you well.

[mogodore]

If they are good enough to employ they are good enough for AT LEAST minimum wage and fair treatment under the local employment standards. Anything else is outright exploitation regardless of how lofty the stature of the exploiter or glowing their after the fact recommendation of their victim.

On the subject of artists as a**holes: where did we ever get the naive notion that art and artists are any different from other products produced by human beings or the people who produce them???? That's equivalent to saying that if someone is a drunken, wife abusing pedofile druggie we are still "obliged" to recognize and buy support their work. Arts is product for consumption just as music or hamburgers and if we don't agree with the behaviour of the producer, as consumers we still have the right to protest with our wallets and our feet. They can be happily famous after they are dead and doing penance in whatever afterlife they ended up in.

[David Lykes Keenan]

I have to comment on the following written in the post linked to herein.

"So is Bruce Gilden a genius or an a**hole? I don't know him, so I don't know."

I have come to know Bruce. Actually he is a sweetheart, funny, a great story teller, and generous.

Don't confuse his approach to photography with the man.

[Mark Sperry]

Coming up photo assisting recently, this is a big problem in our industry. I was hired to assist a photographer for one day of a job, because his intern was going to come in and work the rest of the days.

Interns should be in charge of answering the phones, tidying up, and maybe some light photoshop work in a pinch.

[Mike Johnston]

"That's equivalent to saying that if someone is a drunken, wife abusing pedophile druggie we are still 'obliged' to recognize and buy support their work."

I don't think that follows. I'm just saying it doesn't determine whether the work is good or bad, not that you're obliged to do anything as a consequence.

Mike

[charlie]

Ho hum...

Ten bucks Natchway worked for FREE when he started out.

Same sort of S*^T storm went down on Lighstalkers last year.

Don't like the deal, don't do it.

One sided story.

[MBS]

Seems like a continuation of the apprenticeship system the old guilds used, which was largely geared for the benefit of the master, not the apprentice.

[mike]

I don't see anything wrong with it. When I went to journalism school, part of my program entailed an internship and it was unpaid. You did it because it was part of the program and, as it was explained to us by the teachers of the program, you learn more during that one-month internship than you do during the rest of the one-year program. For what it's worth, they were right; there's no substitute for on-the-job training. And let's face it, when it comes to photojournalism, there are few people better to learn from than James Nachteway. Hell, I'd pay him if he let me hang out with him and learn from him each day. I'm willing to bet people would do just that if he took a teaching post somewhere.

[misha]

You should read what Annie Leibowitz's former employees/interns have to say about her.

I once did that at a still/film studio in NY. Awful! I told my parents about how he treated me and the paid help. Then, we had to face him at our synagogue. Awkward is not the word.

And at the end of the summer, he hired the intern who put up with that excrement. One year later, that employee opened his own studio, and treated everyone well. Maybe I should have let it run like water on a duck.

To those who mutter how Jews are clannish - ha! The guy he hired was Catholic.

[Dave Reichert]

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, if an unpaid internship is structured so that the intern and the teacher (?) both benefit from it, I think it can be a good thing. The listed qualifications don't necessarily indicate that the intern would be functioning as an unpaid employee. They could be in place only to assure the teacher (?) that the applicants are sufficiently advanced in the trade so that they won't get in the way, forcing the teacher (?) to spend valuable time on subjects that the applicant should have learned in school.

On the other hand, the ad doesn't go into any detail regarding the intern's responsibilities, or what benefits he'll derive from the experience. As a result, it's a crapshoot for the applicant.

If I were a student, looking for a leg up, I wouldn't consider applying for this position without more information, regardless of Mr. Nachtwey's considerabe talents. Then again, I haven't been a student for at least thirty years, and that time has given me a different outlook on life. Had Gene Smith offered the position thirty years ago, I might have actually paid to do it... I dunno.

[bobdales]

At least he doesn't charge the intern for the experience. But that may make it legal. Seems to be a moot point in that requiring employers to pay for benefits received is one of thousands of unenforced laws.
Pretty small potatoes in today's moral hazard patch but hazardous none the less.
bd

[Stephen]

"this mess is dripping down from the "fu*k-you-I'm-great-and-entitled" generation."

Which age group would that be?

[Bron Janulis]

I think the ad is bogus. A skill set at a very, very, high level, and no mention of what is in it for the internee. No mention of working with the famous guy learning something. Just labor in his support operation?

What a deal!

[Ranger 9]

John Camp's featured comment included the assertion:

"That's why they're famous: they actually do stuff, instead of sitting around complaining about why they couldn't do it. There's a certain necessary hardness of personality in people who insist on doing things."

I disagree. There are plenty of people -- artists, scientists, scholars, craftspeople, priests -- who accomplish a great deal without developing this sort of "hardness of personality." The difference is that while they care about doing stuff, they don't care about being famous for doing stuff.

It's the drive to be famous -- essentially, the drive to scream "LOOK AT ME!" loudly enough to drown out all the other screamers -- that understandably produces a "hardness of personality."

You never want to lose sight of this distinction. If you care about being famous, you may have to pay your dues by apprenticing unpleasantly under someone who already knows how to be famous. If you don't care about being famous, run away!

[Yuanchung Lee]

I don't fully understand what is controversial. Unpaid internships are everywhere in the work world. My field -- public-interest law -- quite depends on the work of unpaid law students, for instance. And my sense is that much of the art world -- museums and galleries and artists -- offers unpaid internships. And even when there is compensation, it's nominal.

Yes, life is always easier for the "already privileged" -- they don't have to take out loans for school, get to travel the world on their terms, have the freedom to select non-remunerative careers, etc. There's nothing unusual about the unpaid internship.

If I were a young, non-privileged person seeking a career in photojournalism, I'd seriously consider this opportunity, even if it means couch-surfing for a few months or working at McDonald's on the weekend. There's no better way to learn than by watching / experiencing / absorbing the work and thought processes of a master in his or her field.

Nachtwey is offering this opportunity because he can -- I bet there are hundreds of applicants despite the lack of monetary compensation. This is the case because, by his estimation and those of the applicants, working for Nachtwey (and being able to say on a resume that you've worked for Nachtwey, or being able to use him as a reference) is itself sufficient compensation.

[Roger Bradbury]

I do not know James Nachtway at all.

There's no excuse for the rudeness shown in some of the replies to the advert. I wonder if the writers are that rude in person, and if they get into fights a lot. I would not want to work for them.

I do not believe you should work for a business for free. Going to work costs money in transport, food and clothing.

I would not expect to be paid a lot, especially if I was a student who has not had the responsibility of working for someone. It may also be that paying someone makes you value them more.

I do work for free, regularly doing various maintenance tasks and sometimes event photography. But going there (it's a Japanese Buddhist Temple) is good for me. It keeps me sane in a mad world. Of course, they are not a business.

[Kurt Shoens]

I would imagine that photographers like Nachtwey regularly get people asking to work for them. "You don't have to pay me ... I'll do any work you need ..." So they set up an internship program to satisfy the apparent need.

Would an internship for someone less famous and established be more useful? You might find someone talented making their way, they might really need your help, and you might actually make a difference in their business. A recommendation letter from such a gig could mean a lot.

When I interview job applicants who have worked somewhere prestigious, I want to know what they did there. This internship would demonstrate "pre-press" experience -- scanning and Photoshop. Possibly a good deal if that's what you want to do for a living, but there might be better opportunities elsewhere.

[K Brown]

Why is this an issue?
The work may be tough (or not), but you get the opportunity to work in an environment that few people ever get to see. You can learn just from being in that place if you’re motivated, and seriously, when did an internship become handholding?
Why would he, or any other “established” photographer advertise an internship with “no experience necessary”? This is a real world experience, with real expectations, you take away what you put into it ( I also expect thanks is given…to those who handle themselves as professionals, just not those people who want a letter of recommendation from a “name” to speed their pursuit of “fame” for themselves). Why does Nachtwey, or any other
name" owe anyone a break just because he is successful? I remember when you actually worked your way up from the bottom, and were all the better for it. How times have changed...

[David Bennett]

I don't think paid or unpaid is the issue. The question is whether the work experience is valuable.

Do we have an ex-Nachtwey intern in the house who can relate whether the experience was valuable?

In the absence of that... there's not much to say.

Even with that there's not much to say.

Mr Nachtwey makes good and very powerful photographs. He testifies to things.

We have his book - I forget the title but it may be just his name - it's in storage in another country at the moment. It was given to my wife and I by a dear friend.

I can easily call to mind some of the photographs in the book - the greasy smudges that were all that was left of bodies faded into the ground.

It's dangerous ground talking about his character.

[Bron]

Google around and there are two versions of tha "ad", one saying actual work with Nachtwey. There are also quite a few people listing internships with him, on their resumes. The intangibles might be very valuable, though some of the interns would probably do just fine, being somewhat driven, themselves, High requirements weed out the chaff, and it may help show that you have the "chutspah" for being a PJ. You know, selling some BS.

I don't think it's required to be a jerk to be successful, regardless of field, but a certain "spicy" personalty seems common, as JC notes. I've actually encountered some very accomplished people who were "nice guys".

[Alex Vesey]

In a traditional guild system, the initial relationship was often highly slanted towards the master, and the apprentice often did not receive any benefits for years. However, if he managed to gut it out, the master was expected to help the apprentice to set up his own shop, or allow the apprentice to take over the master's operation.

I do not know the circumstances of this particular operation, hence I am hesitant to critique based on one ad. However, if N. can afford to offer some kind of fiscal support to the intern, then I think it appropriate to do so. Especially in this economic climate where educational costs are so, so high. (This would be in keeping with N.'s own social justice message, and it would alleviate some of the class bias noted by "John" and Mike.)

At the very least, the internship should be a viable educational experience for the intern, and thus the program should have a clear plan that tells the candidate about the goals, training, and outcomes. And, provided the intern performs well, the internship organization should be willing to offer back up support to the intern when they apply for jobs (letters of recommendation, a mention on the web-site, etc.)

Finally, some have said that N. may not be responsible for the actually contents of the ad. Ummm. He may not have written it, but as the operator of the business, and the person under whose authority the internship is offered, then he is accountable for the program. If his office is going to bring in an intern into a working relationship that does have unequal power dynamics, then he needs to make sure his regular staff treats the intern properly.

Alex

[Stan B.]

Perhaps the hardwork/no pay ploy is to scare off any would be slackers. Maybe he will somehow, someway make it pay off in the end- unlikely, but perhaps (although some one already indicated such was not the case). I don't know either way- but this is definitely not part of a larger in house program necessary for a license or degree.

I still have the utmost respect for Mr. Nachtwey- for his photography, and yes, his humanity. It's just a damn shame if his empathy doesn't extend beyond the realm of his lens. And what John Edwin Mason said still rings true, "...that unpaid internships function as affirmative action programs for the already privileged."

[Bill Mitchell]

A couple of years ago I found myself yelling (silently, to myself), "you asshole!" and "what an asshole!," and other such aphorisms so often that I figured that someday it was going to slip out somewhere embarrasing in a conversation. So I made the point of replacing "asshole!" with "jerk!" and speaking it softly.
It was even worse than I had thought, and it actually took a couple of months before "asshole!" virtually disappeared from my conversational vocabulary.
Too bad -- it is a great word, and so descriptive. I miss it. ;-)

[Mike Johnston]

Yes, we really don't have enough information to do too close a reading of the significance of this ad. One thing we don't know--if the ad is real. Another--what the conventions are in internships among big-time pj's (i.e, what's expected, what's normal). Another--how many people want such positions. How many photo programs, for instance, urge their graduates to write to people like JN for internships?

Regarding the latter, I now get between twenty and fifty requests every week from people who want me to help publicize their books, contests, events, products, websites, print sales, gallery shows, charitable efforts, other blogs, etc., many of which I'm quite certain are very worthy projects (more worthy than my little site, many of them, perhaps). I'm sure some of those people think I'm an arrogant jerk for not replying or turning them down. I'd be very nice and write an email back to everyone except...well, I get twenty to fifty such requests a week.

So a certain tone would be expected if James Nachtwey's studio manager gets hundreds of requests from would-be interns every year. We just don't know....

Mike

[Kent]

I'm sure Mr. Nachtwey has to deal with his share of odious a**holes too. Maybe the situation is the opposite of what the whiners seem to believe.

Maybe the ad is just an a**shole filter of sorts.

Seems to be working rather well.

[Paul Amyes]

I don't see what the problem is here. A quick search (5 minutes) and I found that Joel Myerowitz and Magnum do the same thing. If I were younger and just coming out of uni I would do it.

I certainly advised my students to do it, I'll explain why later, as long as they don't feel exploited. The college ran a work experience unit but it was found to be problematic with most of the photographers exploiting the students horribly. From sexual favours to mowing the lawn there were numerous complaints. So the programme was canned. This meant that students had no exposure to the real day to day nitty gritty of the profession. Most of the lecturers had had no experience of real world photographic work. So how do the students get to find out what the profession is really like? So I am fully in favour of internships as long as the intern goes into the situation with both eyes wide open.

I find it odd that people can just write off a person's character based on something like this especially as it seems to be the industry norm at the moment. In Australia we call this "Tall Poppy Syndrome". Whenever anyone experiences some measure of success and rises above mediocrity then the masses look for any excuse to cut them down. To all the internet experts I would say if you think it's easy being James Natchwey (or Annie Liebowitz for example) why are n't you doing it?

[David Dyer-Bennet]

The whole "internship" concept is evolving, and is different in different fields, but yeah, unpaid internships are not uncommon especially in artistic and public service fields. Financial firms tend to pay interns. It just varies all over the place.

If it works right, the intern would gain valuable real-world experience, contacts and probably recommendations from someone who means something. I'm sure it doesn't always work right :-(.

[Tom]

Paul, they aren't really looking for an intern. Look at the job requirements.

Of course with flickr replacing paid photographers maybe this is the new intern. I hear that the UK hopes to have enough cameras trained on their populace that a simple freedom of information type of request for the images should cover most wedding photography needs.

[Jake]

What I didn't see in the ad:

Should have own Kevlar helmet, flak jacket and gas mask.
Should be able to leap away from exploding mines.
Should have knee and elbow pads to dive away from sniper attacks.
Should be prepared to have the shnit beat out of you.
Should be able to withstand seeing humanity and poverty at their worst without falling to your knees crying/praying.

This internship looks pretty posh to me.

[Spiny Norman]

As many here have said, unpaid internships are the way that things are often done. As the comment quoted by Mike says, this is affirmative action for the wealthy. Unpaid internships enforce social and economic disparities, decrease social and economic mobility, and make the professional world less of meritocratic and more of a monoculture than it otherwise would be.

Nachtwey can, and should, do better than that. If he doesn't, he is not walking his talk.

[Douglas Urner]

I'm having a problem with this. The job description was very clear about what they were asking for. I can't say that I understand the logic behind the offer, but it is likely that there is some. It strikes me as patently unfair to assume that this is a case of hypocrisy and exploitation - not to say that it isn't, but it doesn't sound like anybody has asked the question.

Surely anybody interested in this position would be asking the question "what's in it for me?" There are probably as many answers to this question as there are people considering the position. I think we disrespect the applicants if we assume that they aren't approaching a position like this with open eyes and a clear sense of the potential costs and benefits.

[Michael C]

Jeez, no need to pay much - pay just a little bit, but pay. It's the honorable thing to do.

[Michael C]

A few years ago, when I was living and teaching in Spain, one of my students came to tell me she was really interested in an internship at a famous architecture studio.

She talked to the principal, who was a real narcissistic egomaniac. The principal told her, "it is a privilege for you to be here, there are countless others who would pay to get this internship"

I told her, well, he's certainly quite famous and quite good, but can you afford not to pay the rent or eat (which she barely could with her current job). And, I knew that most interns were really cannon fodder anyways, and the guy had no interest in promoting anyone.

I am glad she didn't take it.

And to all who posted above, suggesting that young people nowadays are whiners, etc. etc., well, are you saying that because you were treated like sh*t, you wish to see the same treatment applied to everyone else? Shame on you.

[Sean]

There were quite a few people that thought John Lennon was a jerk and a bully. Those aspects of his character were not apparent in his music, which was all I cared about. Nachtwey's been at it long time now, and my problem's not with the man, it's not the subject. That kind of aesthetic is just too familiar to me now, Just doesn't have the impact it once had, at least not for me.

[Robert Roaldi]

I am not sure that the analogy between internship, in general, and going to college/university holds. If you intern for an artist, well, that's one thing and is not unlike doing graduate work in scientific research, for example, although grad students in the sciences often receive stipends. But interning in a commercial organization (bank, mining company, film company, etc.), so that the intern contributes to profits without renumeration is just shy of a rip-off. That situation is completely open to abuse, so you know it's being abused. There may be grey areas, of course, and this situation may be one of those. I don't know how Mr. N. operates his business, so make no comment on him.

I think some caution is needed with the point of view expressed by JC. I am sure that it's true that some of the character traits of pushy annoying successful people help get them where they are, but I have worked with lots of brilliant people, and only a small minority relied on arrogance and bullying. Enduring the bullies seems a high price to pay, imo, because you can usually do better.

But we're hooked on myths. How many people think that genius and madness go hand in hand? A priori, it's a ridiculous idea, but one that is perpetuated because of a few high profile cases. Often, when people meet an arrogant pushy a**holes, they think, wow, he must be a genius. Well, maybe, or maybe not. You can be single-minded, determined, aggressive, in many different ways, without the need to take it out on the most vulnerable people in your entourage. Is this some weird kind of boot camp mentality?

[Gianni Galassi]

Working for free is simply immoral.
No matter the man, there is one precise word for this: EXPLOITATION.

[Robert Noble]

"Working for free is simply immoral."

Let's not tell that to the many millions of parents and volunteers who put in endless, selfless hours of hard, unexciting work every week for absolutely zero pay.

The merits and problems of this particular case notwithstanding, in life there are plenty of rewarding reasons to "work for free," many of them quite admirable (see two examples in previous paragraph).

"Poor is the man who thinks money is the only reward in life."

I for one would have been glad to have put in a few hours for free at the Magnum offices in the 1950s, or Ansel Adams' home darkroom in the 1960s, even if my only reward was getting to know legendary photographers and watch them in action.

[Zlatko]

It's not working for free if you get something back. If the "pay" is non-monetary, then it's a form of barter. Barter is a two-sided transaction. I guess that implied in the ad is that you get some valuable education or experience out of it, though that should probably be stated clearly. If I were a photojournalism student, I would be very interested.

[erlik]

On the other hand we might also need to consider the non-remunerative remuneration, if you will...because for someone, perhaps a resumé item from JN Studio with all of those tasks listed on it would be, as they say, priceless.

You mean, they might get a similar job with a similar salary elsewhere later? :-)

Hugh, it may be a cultural difference but, although I know kids who are Photoshop whizzes, I don't know anyone who would fit those specific needs. It seems they are looking for somebody who would exactly fit into their workflow, without practically any need for them to educate the intern or teach them anything really worthwhile.

To draw an analogy, let me digress a bit. I've been a journalist, a reporter, an editor, an editor-in-chief... And a "redaktor", which might be translated as "copy editor" but with much more authority-a "redaktor" is allowed to change the structure and the style of sentences and the text itself, as well as the style of writing. Quite a responsible position, really.

So, if a magazine puts an ad looking for a person who can edit texts, check the texts for factual/ stylistical/ grammatical errors, who will check whether the illustrations/photos have proper captions underneath, who will contact people to arrange for interviews and so on... all of that for free. Should I apply?

Of course, I'm being sarcastic. :-) An intern would be allowed to write a short news item or to copy photographs from one folder to another. An intern in a photo studio should be allowed to see how ICC profiles are made and only at the end of the internship would be allowed to fully integrate into the workflow. IF she or he learned to do all of that stuff. And, if they are good, would be asked to stay at the studio.

Put as an internship, with all the requirements and the implied short-term duration, the ad really sounds like a rip-off.

[to-mas]

Nothing new unfortunately.
This was discuss many times on lighstalker.org

[Eolake Stobblehouse]

"Seems to me the decent thing to do would be to make sure your unpaid interns at least get some face time and a personal recommendation out of the gig."

Yeah, that's just basic ethics. You don't even have to use any time on it, just let them be there while you work, and explain what you're doing while you do it.

[Dave Kee]

"Working for free is simply immoral."

I am reserving my right to respond to this statement until I can do it justice. I do think it will include at least one reference to Mother Teresa.

[Dennis Fairclough]

Your intern setup in the States would be shunned here in Oz. Exploitation is jumped on pretty quickly by everyone here for the most part - Govt, public and (usually) business.
We have an apprenticeship system but that is almost always paid work. If Nachtwey thinks he's getting some flack in the States, he ought to consider himself lucky he didnt setup shop here. He'd be chopped at the knees here! On face value, I have to say he's not someone I'd want to buy a beer for anytime soon.

[Gianni Galassi]

Robert, Dave,
perhaps I should have been sharper and use the expression "do-a-job-for-the-material-profit-of-one's-employer" instead of "working" (English is not my mother tongue). When it comes to voluntarism I totally agree with both of you, of course. I do volunteer myself, which I could not afford if I worked for free. As for unpaid apprenticeship, as a craftsman I find it is the best way to really learn somebody's skills. Provided it's a real and fair barter. The Nachtwey case (if the stories are to be believed) is far from being one.

[erlik]

For people who decided to misunderstand "working for free is immoral", serious sermonizing...

Being paid for your work is one of the basic human rights, if I'm not wrong. Volunteering and charity work doesn't come into that. If everybody in a company gets paid for their work and the "intern" doesn't, while doing the work at about the same level, it breaks the "intern's" rights. Why do you think Croatian Work Act has a paragraph saying that a worker cannot renounce their salary? Or something equivalent in other countries' laws? Or why do you think there's "minimum wage"?

If you work for somebody, you have to be paid. Internship is a position where you're taught to do some kind of work and that's why it usually isn't paid. Although, as others pointed out, interns are also known to get some money for their work.

And let's not bring either Mother Teresa or the Pope or anybody like that into the discussion. Their basic needs were and are covered, so you might say they are paid for their work.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

When Robert MacNamara was secretary of defense (Vietnam era), he renounced all but $1 of his government salary. CEOs of major corporations do this now and then as well. Nothing illegal about it here that I can find, and since it's done at least partly as a publicity stunt, it's not done secretly.

[Paul Crouse]

People should be paid for their work - as simple as that. Anything else is abusive.