An Interview with Kirk Tuck

Introduction: As I mentioned yesterday, Austin, Texas, commercial photographer Kirk Tuck's new book, Commercial Photography Handbook: Business Techniques for Professional Digital Photographers, from Amherst Media, will begin shipping from Amazon.com this morning. (I believe the release date for the U.K. version is October 8th, although you can pre-order it now.) I asked Kirk if he'd answer some questions from TOP readers, starting with a few of mine...

Mike Johnston: Kirk, welcome to TOP.

Kirk Tuck: Thanks very much. I wake up every morning and read The Online Photographer before anything else. Amazing to think that one morning soon I'll wake up and read this. Warps my idea of the time/space continuum.

MJ: You're not the only one who thinks I warp things. Insert rimshot. Anyway, your previous two books were a matched set about lighting, one about lighting on location and one about lighting in the studio. I particularly liked those books because of your clear and simple style, but also your clear and simple way of thinking about lighting, which is pretty rare. But tell me, why the change of direction with this new title?

KT: I loved writing the first two books because they are purely about lighting. I've spent the better part of thirty years lighting stuff, so at some point it just seemed natural to share it. I thought I'd write one book and that would be it. Who knew that we'd sell out the first book in a bit more than a month? I certainly never thought so. But it seemed to resonate with photographers who wanted to learn about leveraging small, battery powered flashes, and who actually like to read.

But after two titles, it seemed that if I wrote any more books about lighting, they would start to be very reductionist and I'd end up writing about stuff that was more and more obscure.  

It was my publisher who suggested that I write about the business of photography. He had listened to me talk about the challenges of being an ASMP* Chapter President and how much new photographers needed to learn about the business and the marketing end of the business if they had any hope of making a decent living, and he suggested that I write a book for a whole new generation of shooters who know tons about post-processing but very little about getting a client and servicing and keeping that client. Based on what I'm hearing back from people who've read the book, it's really hitting a nerve...in a good way.

And the change of title was good. How many books does one really want that start the title with "Minimalist Lighting..."? It can get confusing.

MJ: So who is this new book for? Is it just for people who are already commercial photographers? That might be a pretty small audience.

KT: I think this book is perfect for all the students who've sat through two- or four-year courses and learned to light and pose and print, but never learned how to assist and market and follow up on a direct mailer. It's for the IT guy who got laid off and thinks he might try his hand at professional photography. It's for the "mom with a camera" who's decided to get serious about her part-time business.

But what I'm finding to be the biggest market are legions of photographers who were content with surviving on the "low hanging fruit" only to find out this year that all the stuff on the lower branches dried up. Now they either need to pay attention to the nuts and bolts of the business or hang it up and learn how to make coffee. But finally, there's a huge segment of our market (and perhaps among the readers of TOP) who have great careers doing something else but always wondered what it would be like to step out of a traditional career and see what it's like working on the bomb squad, diving for sunken treasure...or trying to make one's way through life as a working photographer.

In the end I'm reasonably sure that my mom will buy a number of copies....  

I just thought of one more group of potential readers: photographers whose specialty has become less than special who are contemplating a move to a different subject matter. A different niche. Stock photographers who may be looking for a less "stock-able" subject matter, like architecture or executive portraits....

MJ: So basically anyone who has ever done any work for pay, or who's been contemplating working for pay. Got it.

Next question, what does this book offer that typical "business of photography" books don't? I assume it's more readable, for one thing (I should mention to readers that I haven't seen the book yet). Some of those titles can be, shall we say, yawn-inducing.

KT: I was thinking about offering a "yawn free" guarantee with this book, but my publisher said that would bring up too many liability issues!

To make it less about me and more about the concepts, I include three spreads from three incredible photographers who inspired me in my career and who are still working and surviving the recession. One is Wyatt McSpadden, who had an incredible photographer's book on Texas BBQ published this Spring. It's called Texas BBQ, and it is one of the most amazing books on the culture of food I've seen. Next up is architectural photographer Paul Bardagjy, who came to the field from an academic background of art history and design, and finally, Will Van Overbeek, who's worked for more cool magazines and Fortune 500 clients than anyone I know. He did a show of images taken at a local spring-fed pool, and the Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas at Austin bought the entire show!!

Of course I am wildly opinionated and given to hyperbole, but only in the pursuit of getting concepts across.

Look, I've read a ton of "business of photography" books and they all came across as, "look at me, I'm a wealthy photography expert knocking down seven figures." I wanted to write a book that really opened the kimono, acknowledged that fact that the lessons we learn best are generally learned the hard way, and that my career is also a work in progress. The important thing that any book can do is to provide a new framework to build with. And I think a little humor is like the mortar in the building process. Thanks for the nod to my writing style but I just write the way I talk. (That's why the books are so long....)

MJ: And how about nuts and bolts? I'm surprised sometimes that people have ambitions to be art photographers but don't know about portfolio drop-offs, or want to be wedding photographers and don't know about marketing to wedding consultants. And I don't think most photographers have the slightest clue about the "buyer chain" from the AD on up to the client, or how it impacts how they have to sell themselves.

What I'm asking is, how good do you think this book is as a basic how-to, for someone who really needs action steps in order to get started?

KT: Michael, first of all I should say that the book doesn't really go into detail about wedding photography and what I would call retail photography. I mention pricing models, but working directly with the public is very different than the way commercial and advertising photographers work with their peers and clients. The pricing models are similar, but they sell to a new client all the time, whereas we try to focus on a small group over and over again. And ad clients already understand the market, the service and the pricing models.

When I meet with other photographers, they love to talk about gear but rarely talk about marketing. Having the best gear in the world is pretty meaningless from a money-making standpoint if you can't attract and keep clients. And most photographers are reticent to go out and meet people. They want to believe that all they need to do is get a good web site up and then concentrate on search-engine optimization. There's a lot more to it than that.

So here, in a nutshell, is the way the book progresses. There's the short history of commercial photography. There's a section on how we charge, and it's probably the critical concept of the book. The pricing premise (based on much historic precedence) is that you, the photographer, own the images you create and you license specific usages of those images to your clients. It's the same way Microsoft works in supplying software. You don't own their code, you are licensing very specific usage rights. This allows them to sell the software over and over and over. Once we get past that piece of pricing theory I head into a discussion of the different types of commercial photography, emphasizing all the way through how different clients and their expectations are in each niche.  

Then I barrel on in to the section on advertising and marketing. What are art buyers looking for? Can you really run a profitable advertising business with nothing but an online portfolio and some tweets? (No!) How do you put together a portfolio? How do you follow up? How can you sell without selling all the time?

Then I run through an exercise of estimating a typical job for my business and walk through the billing and collection processes. Of course there are sections about insurance and the "nuts and bolts," but in my mind the marketing is where the rubber hits the road.

MJ: So these aren't marketing formulas, but principles from examples, sounds like.

KT: The interesting thing is that these are all things that have worked for me. There's nothing set in stone. And the information is presented anecdotally instead of as a fixed "formula for success."  Everybody's different and what works for extroverts is anathema for introverts.

The underlying message of all my marketing stuff is that to be successful and happy you have to lose the idea of "us versus them" with regard to clients and potential clients and embrace collaboration. I know some famous New York photographers are legendary for their confrontational negotiation style, but I find that I have more long term honey when I join a client's "team" than when I demand and threaten, and that's a point that I hit on more than once in the book.

When I wrote this book, I did some research in my accounting and realized that I've had some clients for as long as 22 years. And they provide work year in year out. In fact I can probably point to one client whose payments singlehandedly bought my house...over time. Profitable collaboration.

Kevin Rollins, former CEO of Dell, by Kirk Tuck

Art photographers can benefit from the same marketing information as everyone else because their buyers (galleries) as pretty much like the art buyers in ad agencies. They do this for a living and have certain expectations as to approach and presentation. I think good business practices are pretty much universal.

MJ: Kirk, this is fascinating, and I know there's a lot more we could talk about, but we've already gone on a bit long for a blog post. It certainly sounds to me like this new book will be required reading for a lot of photographers who are interested in selling their work to professional clients. Good luck with it—I guess I don't have to explain that I think this is an important subject.

Will you be available to respond to comments and answer our readers' questions? Just selected ones, of course—you don't have to respond to every single comment.

KT: Absolutely. I'd love to answer any questions anyone want to throw out there. Thank you very much for getting in touch with me on this. I'm looking forward to reading it on TOP.

MJ: Thank you, Kirk. I'll open the floor to our readers now. Comments or questions, anybody?

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*American Society of Media Photographers, formerly the American Society of Magazine Photographers. ASMP has more than 5,000 members in 30 countries.

Featured Question from Robert: "Why do all the how-to books illustrate their techniques with bad photography? The photos on the cover are banal at best. It is far better to read PDN, Aperture and the French Photo than any of the technique books at Borders."

Kirk replies: I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am not the best photographer in America or even in my own city. If I were doing a picture book or another how-to book aimed at how to take photographs, I would illustrate it with photos from people like Wyatt McSpadden, Will Van Overbeek and Paul Bardagjy, and probably just cherry pick a few of mine. But. And here's the big But: If I can make a living with the quality of images on the cover and sprinkled through the book then you've got to agree I must know something about marketing, advertising and keeping clients.

This is absolutely not a book about how to make cutting-edge photographs or images that will impress other photographers. It is steadfastly a book about how photographers who want to make money can choose a market niche, find clients and build a brand.

I work for clients who need good, straightforward images done with an eye to conservative corporate values. This book is aimed at people who are coming in to my industry and those who are looking to move up into profitable fields. The people who can already do the kind of work that wins awards and large spreads in major magazines are probably not part of the audience for the book.

I wish I were a better photographer. I really like my portrait work. But I wanted to be honest and show the kind of work that we do every day.

It's not a very glamorous business when you practice it outside New York, Milan, Paris and London. Even though it has a certain cachet, Austin is still a secondary market. Like the markets that most American photographers work in.

Comments

[Roland]

Kirk, how do you deal with late paying clients?

[kirk tuck]

Roland, I make sure to review terms with my clients when I proffer a contract. Starting in 1996 or 1997 I began taking credit cards and currently Dell, Freescale and a number of other corporate clients pay with credit cards on the day of invoice. For the last two years, really pushing credit card payment as an option, I've had no clients paying later than 30 days. Most photographers just put some phrases in a contract. I like to sit across the table and say something like, "Now, you understand that part of the process is that you guys will need to pay us on delivery. Will you be using a credit card for that or should I send someone by to pick up a check?"

Remember, they need you as much as you need them!

Thanks for the question!

[Mike Johnston]

That sounds like a more sophisticated version of what I did. The last time I was working, in '90 and '91, one way photographers were competing in D.C. was to offer longer and longer terms to clients. It got really ridiculous--I had clients who were paying in 90 days who would tell me that so-and-so was offering terms of 120 days, and could I match that?

I don't know who can afford to go four months without being paid--not only for their work, but for their expense reimbursements. Remember the old adage, "cash flow kills." I actually had to turn down a job because I didn't have the cash to pay the expenses. At the same moment, I had many thousands of dollars in accounts receivable.

Well, the solution finally struck me--I just started to explain to clients that I was a little fish, and couldn't bill them--I said I needed to be paid either at the time the work was done, or when it was delivered. Much to my surprise ALL of them could not have been nicer about it, and ALL of them began paying immediately, without complaint (a number of them out of their petty cash aaccounts!). There wasn't a single exception. A problem I'd been wrestling with mightily just went away with a poof, completely.

Mike

[Bron Janulis]

From a similar business, high end framing, though I still do photography of fine art, I concur with Kirk about websites, necessary, but a reference and adjunct to other things. Relationships require work. Like Mike and Kirk, I'm mostly COD, sometimes asking for and getting advances; I've been using PayPal more and more; worth it to not wait for the infamous, check in the mail.

Kirk, have there been some changes due to the recession? In my case, I would call it a depression, as I've had several 20+ year clients go out of business this year.

Looking forward to the book.

[Marty McAuliff]

As a confirmed "low hanging fruit" kinda guy, this is a book I can probably read. I especially like the comment about the somewhat typical "look at me, I'm a wealthy photography expert knocking down seven figures." business how-to delivery of some experts. That there is the yawn inducer.
Actually, now I want the first lighting book as I'm less interested in the business and more in the technique.
Thanks for a great interview, Mike and Kirk.

[Ken Tanaka]

@ Robert: I've not read Kirk's book and I am not a commercial photographer, although I have done commercial work. But regarding the images on the front of his book...

I don't have the impression that the book is devoted towards teaching you how to use a camera. Read the subtitle: Business Techniques for Professional Digital Photographers.

To that end, the images on the cover probably represent exactly the type of images that most commercial photographers pump out, if they're lucky, week in and week out. Commercial photography is a commercial service business; it's a trade like being an electrician or plumber. The vast majority of the work is far from glamorous --absolutely banal crap-- and entirely anonymous (you'll rarely see a photo credit). It's also far from art.

In short, I suspect that Kirk's book might help to debunk the glamor myth of commercial photography. It's a grind of a business that will soon extinguish any love of photography from the spirits of all but the heartiest souls.

[kirk tuck]

To Bron,

In answer to your question about the economy: yes, I think regional photographers are living through a depression. It's a confluence of the decimation of the middle of the market by amateurs and others who are willing to do work at a loss in order to see it published coupled with the demise of traditional media outlets and the client perception that images for the web (the major ad venue still standing...) should cost less because, for all intents and purposes the web looks free.

When you put all that together with the recession it spells bad news for many. I certainly have seen my billing fall. But I think that the antidote is to go back and look at new markets. If you shoot corporate but not weddings you might want to add weddings to your business. If you have other talents like web design or writing it would be smart to incorporate those as new profit centers.

But there is always opportunity. As the large ad agencies falter they open up markets to smaller teams of professionals. One of my friends has a side business doing YouTube style videos for lots of different types of companies locally.

I've lived through three major down cycles and each time the economy came back. This cycle may take longer but it will still come back. The fees will go to the people who consistently built their brand even through the bleakest times.

[kirk tuck]

To Ken: Thanks for playing defense for me. You are absolutely right. If I showed nothing but national pages from Elle Magazine of celebrities (and I do have one in the book, thank you!) I would be showing a very distorted and unreal view of the overall market.

I think most photographers are a bit delusional about the business. Many seem to constantly chase the latest equipment but so little of our work requires cutting edge cameras and lenses. Many have unrealistic expectations about the kinds of images paying clients need. So few of our clients need images of nude women or glamor or even extreme sports. The majority of working photographers are shooting food and houses for local shelter and lifestyle magazines. Environmental portraits of high profile ( non-celebrities) people who are big donors to communities, headshots for business and lots and lots of event stuff. All these things can be done with basic equipment.

I've photographed some celebrities over the last two decades but that's tiny percentage of the kind of work that is available in most smaller markets. You have to create a balance between the kind of work you do for your art and what you do to pay the bills.

And the second part of that balance is what I wrote about. The art part is all over the web. Join a Flickr group, look at girls on Harley's and Ninjas and models lit in the desert with 28 flashes but don't think those things are relevant to running a good business.

Thanks, Kirk

P.S. If you need to see more debunking of gear mythologies head to my blog at www.visualsciencelab.blogspot.com

[Kurt Shoens]

With respect to commercial photographs, it would seem the emphasis is on the subject and not the photograph. "Wow what a yummy-looking plate of food" vs. "Wow what a great picture." Plus commercial pictures probably have only a few seconds to relay the message.

With respect to the 28 flashes in the desert, I see some photographers using social media to market a persona. It seems to light them up in the eyes of other photographers, but I wonder if all the behind-the-scenes video and adventures on location travelogue reaches potential clients. Plus it looks like an awful lot of work to create. (OK, in the form of a question, "Is it worth the effort to market your persona?") Visual Science Lab in contrast is your insights on photography and the business (and a good read!).

A second question (time permitting): you must have learned things about your business while researching the book. I'm curious what sorts of insights this book brought you.

[Stephen]

Great interview; I might just have to grab a copy of the book.

Not half bad for a Longhorn... :)

[Bron Janulis]

Kirk,

In talking with clients/colleagues, there is a general feeling that this is the worst "valley" in the almost 40 years I've been in and out of the art field. There is also a feeling of a shift in the nature of the business; as you allude to with the interwebs and "amateurs". I "know" it will come back, but different than before. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to reading your book, as I've found your blog at times very enjoyable and insightful. Some new thoughts and fresh ideas might help, though I've not been resting in exploring new ways to try and attract business; as well as what the business is and does.

Hope the book does well!

[kirk tuck]

Hi Kurt, Those are the very same questions I ask myself every time I see another video by Chase Jarvis or read about Joe McNally doing something the hard way to support his franchise with Nikon. I've queried a number of art directors and art buyers and most of them say, "Who?" But it's important to remember that the primary markets for most of the new "cult of personality" photographers has very little, if anything, to do with commercial photography. The cult men are very specifically targeting amateur and newbie pro photographers. A ready market for books, DVD's, and especially and most importantly, workshops.

Why? Because you don't need to deliver a highly creative finished photograph, you get instant respect because you've built up a persona and a rationale for existence. All you have to do is teach some new dogs some old tricks. Like bouncing a light of the ceiling or using some black foil to make a snoot. To the uninitiated this all seems like magic.

In the old days workshops were populated by reasonably competent photographers and many times the workshops required a portfolio be shown as a condition of admittance. Now the vast majority of one day and weekend workshops are aimed at people who've just bought the camera and flash and are using the workshops as a refuge from the printed manual. And what can you really expect from a culture largely educated by video.

The workshops have grown in the number of participants, following the trend on the web of offering lower and lower prices in exchange for quantities of sales.

Will you make money with a good "cult of personality workshop"? As long as there are well paid professionals from OTHER professions who seek out photography as a hobby and as long as there are IT guys sharpening their skills with an eye to shooting "model portfolios" the answer (from anecdotal research) is yes.

Will this line of work engender bookings from major advertising agencies? I think the jury is still out. People like Joe McNally established their reputations decades before the advent of twitter and facebook. Jarvis became successful first and started documenting his every move second.

Some who've become famous from blogging are being invited into the hallowed halls of companies that benefit from social marketing and web plumbing because they represent a model that the industries would like to interpret and profit from.

On a local level the social marketing seems to resonate in the retail space----weddings and baby portraits. I haven't seen the same successes from various people in the ad space.

I would say that magazines, which nowadays are also defacto websites have a higher awareness of newly minted social marketers with cameras but, keep in mind, this is a media space that is hemmorhaging people and properties at an astounding pace.

My take is that all real estate is local. Most commercial jobs are indeed, local. It's easy to get better at local marketing because it is less expensive. You've got to have a base somewhere.

Finally, the care and feeding of a persona requires constant travel and even more constant care and feeding of a website, a blog, a forum, a cellphone and all the rest while creating very few opportunities to create long term products and intellectual property that you will be able to profit from again and again. A video on the use of Nikon SB-800 flashes is already largely obsolete.......

On to the second question. What have I learned? That most people talk about marketing and never do it or do it randomly and when they already have a foot in the quicksand of economic dissolution. That a face to face meeting with a potential advertising client trumps all other marketing. That building true, face to face professional relationships is the key to success in nearly every long term sustainable business.

Look, IBM is a smart company. Why do you think they spend millions and millions of dollars each year to hold trade shows and customer forums and to send sales people out to meet face to face? Because they've done the metrics and they know that it is still the way all big deals are closed.

Obviously we're not IBM but maybe we should copy the smart people for a change. The web is a great place to sell penis enlargement, viagra and commodities. Maybe we shouldn't copy bottom of the barrel tactics.

MIght have stepped on some toes but that's how I see it.

Oh, one more thing....if you want to make a killing in stock photography make sure you own the agency....

[kirk tuck]

Stephen, thanks very much. I take it that you are an Aggie. Thank you for learning our language. :-)

[Ken Tanaka]

"Like bouncing a light of the ceiling or using some black foil to make a snoot."

Kirk...shhhh!! Cinefoil is one of the most valuable secrets. Make 'em pay for that tip! Whatsa matta wit you?

[Bron Janulis]

Kirk,

Your latest comments are very good. I started my business doing "cold calls"; lost more money than I made at first, mostly because I was learning things I said I could deliver, but built a base of repeat customers, all based on a personal, face to face interaction. I didn't have a clue, other than a gut reaction that I needed to see the customer.

I still start and deliver most of my jobs face to face for that very reason. Every thing you've said has clicked with me.

Well, certain aspects of the crafts I practice, are unchanged since the caves at Lascaux; I use a computer for certain aspects of those crafts now; but the need for a face to face is still very important; I'm glad you emphasize that, as I probably needed to hear it again.

[kirk tuck]

I think the ability to bring people together and throw a great party trumps "search engine optimization" as a marketing tool for artists. If I'm wrong I will still have enjoyed a great party. If I am right then I haven't spent more time sitting on my butt in front of a soulless computer.

[kirk tuck]

Ken, cinefoil is just a loss leader now. The real stuff is.......