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Thursday, 19 January 2017

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As an M9-P user thinking in updating to the M10 (although I'm not so sure the update is so significant, at least about 3500€-significant, which would be the cost of the update) the new Fuji tempts me a lot. Totally new system, focusing, format... what's not to like for an amateur wanting to have fun?

Re the Fuji
B&H is reporting a Road map....
"Still to come in 2017 are three more lenses, of which Fujifilm has only unveiled the names: the GF 110mm f/2 R LM WR, equivalent to 87mm, the GF 23mm f/4 R LM WR, equivalent to 18mm, and the GF 45mm f/2.8 R WR, equivalent to 35mm. These will help fill out the new lineup and help satisfy both professionals and enthusiasts jumping into the medium format system."
As well as adapters for view camera mounting, and one to use older MF Fuji EBC lenses.
I'm sure this will be a fine camera but it seems to me a bit "Neither fish nor fowl' The sensor is such a small abount bigger than FF that It seems to have been done for purely marketing reasons.
(area exaggerates the improvement) The files are 14bit, there are no leaf shutters. Flash synch is 1 /125 and It ships with Silky Pix
Fuji knows how to make great leaf shutter lenses.
I didn't find the first 3 lenses particularly exciting either.
This is a camera I was thinking seriously about, now I'll wait to see if it grows on me.
I wonder why no adapter for H lenses I think they make them??

I would pick the Fuji; I hear the AF on the Leica's is unreliable ;-)

As for Fuji's f/2 lenses...my opinion is they missed the opportunity to release a line of f/2 pancakes. Yes, these slower versions are lighter and thinner, but not really much shorter than their f/1.4 sisters.

I was a long-time user of the Smansung NX10 mirrorless, which I paired almost exclusively with their 30mm f/2 pancake. I loved that combination for the tiny footprint and lightness, which is great for street photography.

Maybe Fuji will eventually release a few more pancakes with f/2.8 apertures, but I'll leave it to others to buy those. [teenager-voice]I guess I'll just have to continue lugging around these great f/1.4 Fuji lenses then...[/teenager-voice]

If this imaginary rich friend offered me this imaginary choice, I'd definitely go with the Fuji GFX-50S, if for no other reason than the larger sensor size. Also, I'm pretty sure the lenses will be top quality and have a lower price.

In real life, though, absent the imaginary friend, I'll probably pass. At 1.7 times the size of 35mm, the larger sensor is welcome, but I'm disappointed that it's Bayer array instead of X-Trans. Also, I haven't yet been able to pin down the bit depth, but I take that as a bad sign - you know if it were 16-bit, Fuji would be touting that fact all over the place. From what I've been able to gather, I think it's going to be 14-bit, and I'm betting that's interpolated from 12-bit.

So, while I could spend $8000 (which is the rumored kit price) and add several pounds to my bag, I think I'll put that money towards something I'm more excited about, such as a few more shooting trips

Glad to hear Leica has slimmed down the digital M, though. Better late than never.

With respect to simultaneous product introductions for the X100F and X-T20 with the GXF, it's pretty simple, Mike. They want to book revenue for these new X-cam products as soon as possible; the release of these was in their 2017 AOP. The sales of the GXF are to an entirely different market segment. The X100F was supposed to be released last fall, two years after the X100T, but it's release was delayed because of 24 MP sensor shortage due to the Japan earthquake. Fuji made the (correct) decision to use those sensors instead for fulfilling the unexpectedly high X-T2 production orders.

Can I then please have a new computer too - to handle the Fuji 50+MB files?

From Fuji's press release:
Three Additional FUJINON GF Lenses to be Announced Later in 2017:

GF110mmF2 R LM WR (equivalent to 87mm in 35mm format)
GF23mmF4 R LM WR (equivalent to 18mm in 35mm format)
GF45mmF2.8 R WR (equivalent to 35mm in 35mm format)

Between the Fuji and Leica, Fuji (hands down). A smaller cameras is more practical, but a Leica just isn't a camera I'd want even if I were rich. The Fuji is. But ... say this friend offered me a choice between the Fuji medium format and the same value in Fuji X gear. That would be a harder choice. On the one hand, the X gear is more or less similar to what I'm shooting now (except that I don't have nearly that value tied up in it) and it would be more interesting to try the more exotic medium format. On the other hand, it might spoil me forever and I'd be in a real quandary if I wanted to expand it by buying new lenses. Or if I had to pay to fix it or replace it years down the road. Kind of like being given a car you can't afford to maintain or a house you can't afford to heat and pay taxes on. Always fun, these "if I won the lottery" fancies of flight.

Putting the GFX-50S on my Toyo 4x5 technical sorta kills the idea of small & lightweight.

I'll be using a Cambo Actus, when I get my XT2 https://static.cambo.com/Files/Actus-ActusDB_2015.pdf I'll also use either the 24mm or 60mm Actar lens. Even a decrepit old-man, like my self, will have no trouble schlepping this.

I would save my friend some money and tell them to get me the Fuji XPro-2.

As for WR lenses I will, for sure, buy the 23mm f2.0 unless they release a 27mm f2.0 WR lens.

I currently have the 27mm f2.8 and really like it's angle of view. Where it falls short is it's dof ability.

The GFX seems promising, especially when considering its just a little more expensive than a 1D or D5. I think that one is in my future, but indeed, a new computer is a must as well.

Oh gawd, there once was a day I could...and there once was a day I would...

Oh Fuji, why didn't you do it then?

Without a question I'd go for the Fuji. I'd probably get the zoom lens to walk around with, and adapt some older medium format lenses for my tripod work (which is how I shoot the bulk of my photos). I'm kind of regretting selling my Mamiya 645 system off, but at the time I just couldn't reliably focus it if the light levels were low. I expect the high res viewfinder on the Fuji will breathe new life into a lot of older medium format lenses.

I'd also be interested to try the 4x5 adapter, if for no other reason than to see how my LF lenses stack up.

For some reason digital Leica's hold little appeal to me, so this is an easy choice.

Here's hoping there's a sans hump version of the X-T20 and it's called an X-E3.

I'd like to see one soon, but there's not even rumors about it yet.

What itch do such humps scratch anyway? Maybe I don't want to know.

Cheers

Yes, Fuji X-100f is the fourth iteration:

X-100
X-100s (s = second)
X-100t (t = third)
X-100f (see what they did there?)



I think the Fuji would be primarily of use to people who like Fujis, as I doubt that the photos would be THAT Much better that those available at a much lower price from Nikon and Canon. (A Nikon D810 is about $2800 now.) It's a much bigger step up from the APS-C Fujis than from the FF cameras of other brands...it's essentially Fuji's FF offering with a schmear.*

The Leica...meh. Yeah, it's smaller, but I was shooting an M8 and M7 at the same time, and I didn't feel crippled by the M8's size.

Bottom line is, I think we're really talking about tweaks to mature systems, and the tweaks are less than compelling. Back in the olden days, the steps between, say, an F4 and an F5 really were compelling. But if you already have, say, a FF Nikon
or Canon, don't know exactly why you'd go to the larger Fuji, unless you are really a camera/mechanics freak. You won't see much difference in the actual images you produce, IMHO.

*My spell checker doesn't want to let me use the word schmear, and keeps changing it to schemer. If it says "schemer" in this post, I really meant schmear.

I am very excited to see the FujiMax come to reality! I look forward to taking one for a test drive perhaps later this year.

But me? I went straight for the M10 as if I was sleep-walking. (It was a bit creepy.) I've been using digital M cameras since the M8. But while each successive model has become better it's also become thicker and heavier (kinda like people, eh?). The M/MP240 has lost the sleek sveltness for which the M gained its fame. It's thick, a bit cumbersome to carry and use, and just not as much fun as the early M8 and M9. (My MP has been largely relegated to use on one project for which it's rather uniquely qualified.)

So this M10 announcement, which was a complete surprise to me, hit me squarely in my sore spot. I'm hoping that it maintains or improves on my MP's still image tech
while restoring the sheer enjoyment I had with the slimmer, lighter M9 and M9. The digital M on a diet!

as someone who works in R&D and often consults with marketing, but not in the camera industry, I think you are wrong about Fuji and their marketing department. I would say that Fuji probably has the most competent marketing department of any of the camera companies. One that actually consults with customers to come up with a coherent and useful product line and then gets R&D to execute on that plan. As opposed to a company like Nikon that seems to spit out anything the R&D department comes up with no matter how it fits with their existing products or with the needs of their customers.

I'd be happily accepting either, but seriously consider trading for the new Hassy mirrorless for the ergonomics. But I'm a bit stumped by all these clean-sheet mirrorless camera and lens systems that are $10K out the door and who's actually going to buy them (or enough of them to pay back the R&D for the manufacturer to stay afloat).

Regarding timing of new product introductions and the sales launch of the X100F today...it is already the fifth best-selling camera on AmazonUS.

The new Fuji GFS 50makes some sense on paper. I am looking forward upcoming lab tests and reviews. This 23mm lens could be great for shooting cramped airplane cockpits. And the 120mm could do just fine for the corporate portraits. I would gladly replace my old Canon 1Ds Mk III and lenses for my corporate work.

I would take as well the Leica M10 for my snapshots. But since M digital used bodies don't keep much value, I would have to dash some cash on top of it.

But if I was a zillionaire, I would less hesitate.

Why not call this and the new Hassie what they are: MFT (Macro Four Thirds)cameras?

reply to Paul Bartlett: Only problem with 'F' for the forth version is that the Fifth version would be 'F'???

Maybe convert to Japanese because the sound for 5 is Go. OK then make it 'G'

Google says: 5 = 五(go) in Sino-Japanese

Hmm... it's a meaningless exercise since I'll never have $10k of disposable change for a new camera, but I was looking at the M10 & the M-A and wondering which I'd get if I could afford to. I remember the other Leica's I've owned and the itch comes back, some days worse than others.

Either with a nice mint Summitar would be a heck of a fun camera. As long as Tri-X and Ektar are available, the M-A would be glorious in it's delightfully obsolete way. Yet how much different would _my_ work be with one of those over the Olympus E-P3 I just upgraded to? I took some shots of my usual subjects on Tuesday and was quite happy with several of them.

In the end I think I'm the kind of photographer who will have memories of the IIIf and the CL I used to own and I'll go to KEH or Igor's or somewhere and find an old user condition Summitar I can afford, a good adapter ring and trust my new to me Olympus to see me through.

I clicked your link to the X-Pro2 at B&H. Black body only: $1699. Black body with the fantastic 23mm f2 lens: $1899. WOW! $200 for a lens that is very 35 Summicroney. Fantastic lens that I gladly paid $449 for last year. Oh, and the choice of the 23mm f2 (35mm-e) speaks volumes about Fuji as a company. By photographers for photographers, Fuji just gets it.

In other news today, one could also purchase a Leica M10 with the aforementioned 35 Summicron for... $9,590.

Fuji is also releasing an adapter for the GFX which will accept Hasselblad leaf shutter lenses.

Also, I would buy the GFX. I have already pre-ordered the X100F. I am embarrassed to admit I will now own all four versions. I just can't bring myself to sell them when I purchase a new one...... :-( My original X100 is now the carrying it on my bicycle camera. I also still have my original X Pro and an X Pro 2...sigh....

I'd take the Leica over the look-a-like-a

Alternate reality? Both please.

If I had the business or projects (not to mention budget) to support it, I would go for the GFX if only to use it on the Chamonix - think of the range of lenses, movements and macro possibilities!

I'd tell my rich friend I'd take the Leica as it seems a useful incremental upgrade from my IIIf*, there's a huge range of lenses and I wouldn't need a new computer. 35mm is "good enough" for me.

The bigger decision is whether to go with black or silver.

What I'd really like is for Fuji to release a monochrome sensor.

*Aussie humour alert

Of all of the sample images floating around from the new Fuji, the new Leica and previously the new Hasselblad, I find the Fuji images the most appealing. They have something to them...
Dammit.

I would choose the Fuji. Sadly, I have no rich friends, at least none inclined to be that generous toward me.

Huh. Missed the battery normalization with the X100f -that was half of what led me to sell my X100s and pick up a cast off X-Pro1 as a second camera for the X-T1... it echoes the engineer's reasoning behind keeping the smaller batteries in the XPro and XT lines(to provide commonality).

It's rather pleasant to use a system that's somewhat interested in my convenience.

Hands down the GFX50 for me. As someone who prints large and shoots primarily seascapes and landscapes. For me. an obvious choice!

I really like what Fuji is doing. How is it able to be the only camera company apart from Leica that is not dictated to by its marketing department?

it's actually really simple.

They are listening to, and acting on, "The Voice of the Customer" rather than the "Voice of the Internal Corporate Proxy".

Companies that are really good at the former (and Fuji is exemplary at "VOC") and provide innovative products that create Quality and Value will win.

BTW, Fuji's corporate tagline is: "Value from Innovation"

One thing I found interesting in the fuji GFX announcement was the HC mount adapter. This allows using the jointly made fuji/Hasselblad lenses. Why I find this interesting is an adapter is equally available for the Hasselblad x1d camera. So you could buy the 9 HC lenses and use either of the new compact medium format cameras. Tell this to the rich friend as the cost will be really high. But still less than a new phase one camera.

Just went to the Fuji GFX link at B&H from TOP.

One day after it's market launch, the GFX is presently listed as B&H's "#1 Seller" and the ship date has now slipped to end of March instead of end of February, no doubt due to the volume of orders.

Fujifilm may have another hit on their hands on the scale of the X-T2, where the camera went into worldwide backorder on the day the shipping embargo lifted.

I think we will see not only X-cam owners buying it, but significant taking of "share" from Phase One, Hasselblad, and Pentax as well as "crossover" sales from pros using full-frame Canikon pro body as well as Sony FF mirrorless customers.

So, yeah, I think it's gonna sell.

I would choose the Leica. The rich friend would have given me what is probably the best FF (36 x 24 mm) sensor available this year and a fine way to view and frame with it. I have all the lenses I need, and the money that I will retrieve from my M240 would probably pay for two undoubtedly nice GF lenses to donate to my rich friends other lucky friends (who are now going broke adding new lenses to their "free" GFs). Maybe they will loan me theirs to try out once in a while.

The Fuji GFX poses quite a conundrum for me.

Although I could, in theory, write a check for a body and it would clear the bank, in my present circumstances, I can't really afford one, because the great joy I'l no doubt experience whenever I'm using it, will be substantially (perhaps even completely) offset by recalling the opportunity cost I paid to own it whenever I'm not.

And while Fuji is making it easy to use the GFX as a digital back, by giving it a focal plane shutter and also offering a view camera adapter -- how cool is that?! -- their approach is very different than mine, which means I would have to forgo their convenient adapter and fabricate my own, as well as adapt my FrankenKamera in a few other, minor ways to accommodate the size and shape of its body.

Its larger, 33 x 44 sensor is a huge draw for me and the late-night, long-exposure photography I do, because all things being equal, larger sensors mean less noisy files (and it seems highly unlikely Fuji would have screwed things up such that this isn't as true in practice as it is in theory.)

But a larger sensor is also a huge drawback for me, because they require the use of smaller apertures to achieve a similar depth of field as smaller sensors, as I learned to my detriment / annoyance several years ago, when I was using a Contax 645 / Phase One P30+ combo for my nighttime photography, and what had been ~45-second exposures with an m4/3 camera became ~6-minute exposures with a medium-format one.

In addition to increasing the potential six-fold for external events to ruin my photos -- say, a car driving through the scene that I am photographing -- long exposures made with large sensors also require long cool-down periods afterward, so as to minimize noise for the next photo I take. (This is especially true here in Arizona, where during the summer months, the ambient temperature can still be over 100 degrees at midnight!)

Collectively, this double-whammy reduced both my productivity and enjoyment immensely and I would often come home from my multiple-hour outings with only two or three images instead of a dozen or more, as was often the case when I was using an m4/3- or APS-format camera.

For the past few years, I have compromised and ended up in the middle, where I use mirrorless camera bodies with 35 mm-format sensors, because they offer (for my purposes, so YMMV) the best balance between exposure length and depth of field, as well as make it easy to use the adapted lenses I prefer.

All that notwithstanding, I confess I am more than mildly tempted to buy one regardless, if only just because. (If my circumstances were just a tiny bit more financially favorable, I probably would've placed an order already, opportunity cost be damned!)

But they aren't and so I haven't.

Maybe in a few years, when used GFX bodies can be bought for half price (or less?), I will reconsider my decision. Ditto if / when my present circumstances improve.

In the meantime, though, I applaud Fuji for their decision to put the GFX into production. It's a bold move, to be sure, and also, I hope, a very successful one for them.

The fuji story is extraordinary.Late to the sho they show up with the wonderful but infuriating x100. I love it but it makes me mad.

I am a second waver I am afraid. I have just bought a mint second hand xt1 for around £400 ...a steal. For me it is probably all I need. However if it goes as well as I think then I may be persuaded to get an XT20 in 12 months.
The one is robust for Dartmoor weather, the other gives compactness and improved autofocus. Its a great combination!

Thank you Fuji. I have hung on to my Pentax gear .... but I will see over the next year which way I will jump. If it means leaving Pentax it will be with some considerable sadness.

I would take the Leica, but only because I have four nice lenses to use in it. And couple of others that could be adapted.
If I started now with an empty bag, this could well be the only serious camera I would need, and the lens prices are reasonable enough for a complete set, which for me would mean the super wide angle, 35 equivalent and a short tele. That plus a small compact, GRD for example.

To my surprise, the dealer I buy from in Cologne had an M10 to play with when I visited him yesterday. The camera feels VERY different from the somewhat fat M (type 240). Very much like my M6 did way back then, only it is heavier.

Speaking of the thickness of the M10: from what I see in online-pictures _with_ lenses, it is almost certain for me that it is the same depth as the M6 (which I have). Steve Huff reported the same, but he also used an M10 for one week. And it is defenitely thinner than the M8 and its successors, which were only slightly, but distractingly, thicker than the M6.

My imaginary friend will buy me an M10, I am sure. Although I can see the appeal of the Fuji, I am sure the M10 feels better when out in the street, plus there is a Minolta 40/2 waiting for digital resurrection. The M8 never felt 100% right, especially after handling an M6.

>I would say that Fuji probably has the most competent marketing department of any of the camera companies.

They've grown a terrific team over the years. During the film era they were somewhat notorious for having no follow through on what were great basic ideas; they seemed to give up too quickly on what could have been winners. Since the X100 they've had the clearest, best thought out product plan of any company.

As for my vote, since I've been using M Leica's since the mid-60"s and have old and new glass, the M-10 is a no brainer. It has a lust factor of 10 on a scale of 1-10... at least for me.
The decision isn't whether or not to buy one but deciding which color.

"...I am as camera-ed up as I could possibly need to be. Yay...and no sale!"

+1 Paul. Yay. How liberating!

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