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Tuesday, 18 September 2012

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Maybe Leica is now going to play a sort of reverse hangman, removing the strokes of the letter M one by one, model by model, until they reach perfection, and that camera will be simply called "".

So Leica is following Apple's lead. Earlier this year, Apple introduced its third generation iPad, but instead of naming it the iPad 3 (or the iPad HD, as some speculated), Apple simply named it the iPad.

Sigh. Leica could have morphed the M-E into an EVF-only body like the NEX7 or X-E1, but instead they rewarmed the M9 into this.

The 24MP sensor is to be made by CMOSIS: http://www.cmosis.com/

Article: http://electronicsfeed.com/news/2952
"The sensor is the first milestone in a long term, strategic cooperation between Leica Camera AG and CMOSIS"

Cheers,
Daniel.

Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear makes fun of Porsche Boxster buyers in a similar way: Why would you buy a model that advertises the fact that you can't afford the good one?

I guess that these are objects that people covet, they're not just cameras. You can't really covet ordinary stuff. Something has to be special to be "coveted".

photokina is turning out to be a real disaster.

if you want me i'll be over at the fuji booth...

Regarding the "M", something that I haven't yet seen discussed: What happened to the bright line illumination window? (Still present on the M-E pictured at the top of the article, but not on the M10, err.. M).

It's conspicuously absent from the M, which brings up a number of questions (will the bright lines be electronically overlayed? Absent altogether? Without a bright line window, is it really a rangefinder?) etc...

More on the 24MP sensor: http://www.azosensors.com/news.aspx?newsID=4741

Pixel pitch of 6 micron. Linear full well capacity >40K e, 76dB SNR, 14 bit column ADC. By my guesstimate, at base ISO they are getting about 6.3 e equivalent read-out noise.

Cheers,
Daniel.

Hasselblad has kinda been gone for a long time, mostly since the digital era began. Yeah, I know they have a line of MF digitals but their fate was largely sealed when they decided to close their system.

Recall that Hasselblad has had a new private equity owner for a year now. So it's not altogether surprising that Hassy would announce such rather silly and vacuous fashion news at Photokina this year. Seems rather like yet another in a growing line of oblique acclamations for Sony, eh?

I'd call it the M Mark X D10 10D.

DPReview seems to say Leica refer to this iteration of the M-nothing as the Typ 240. It would not surprise me if that is derived from the number of megapixels on the sensor. Can't seem to find it inscribed anywhere on the body, maybe on the bottom plate somewhere?

As for Hasselblad - wow. Just "wow". And this during an economic global recession.

I'll be fine with my M8 for a while longer.

On the bright side, Mike, I've read about three new Zeiss E-mount primes that may be enough to pull you over into an NEX-7. Un gussied-up, obviously.

1956 Continental Mark II

[Maybe, but that's not the one I'm thinking of. —MJ]

one-off, super-deluxe, overbuilt, extremely expensive, jump-the-shark wannabee luxo cruiser" that he sat on to paint?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Wyeth_painting_en_plein_air.jpg
well compared to a regular jeep I guess.

[Nope, that's not the one either.... MJ]

What idiot would buy the Hassy Lunar and then show how foolish (and rich) he/she is?

That 'blad...it doesn't look so much like a re-branded Nex-7 as it does an actual Nex-7 augmented with acres of plastic as part of some child's school craft project. It looks like a complete and utter joke. Gone Wrong.

That M-E is just sad. It's old design by todays standards and the price should be a lot less to make any sense. I just hope this all results in cheaper M9 in the used market, so I can buy one again. In the meantime it's going to be fuji-x series for me.

Sorry I hope you won't think this comment is too acerbic.

You managed to work in three dinosaurs that are either extinct or quickly heading in that direction. All while painting a thick coat of nostalgia for your readers and wringing hands.

We are way down the road with technology. Companies can choose a path that will lead to an uncertain future or a certain grave. The message of these three companies is to choose wisely.

Hmmm... maybe I shouldn't have knocked £20 off the price of that secondhand Olympus VF-2 electronic viewfinder I'm selling. Hadn't counted on budget Leica buyers wanting it for their Leica M's (their X2 viewfinder is allegedly just a rebadged Olympus VF-2). Then there were all those new Olympus models announced yesterday... without viewfinders. Heck, maybe I should put the price up!

By the looks of it, Hasselblad's target market is yacht owners. I'm assuming they'll bring out a limited edition model with real gold accents in the near future.

Does anybody remember the Vertu super luxury mobile phone brand Nokia launched? The new Hasselblad reminds me of Vertu although, to be fair, at least Hasselblad started off with a good camera. I'm sure the price tag makes up for it being a tarted up (pimped? Is there any gender neutral way of saying this in plain language?) to the point of obscenity NEX-7.

I agree that the M-E doesn't make any sense. Sure we can talk about rangefinder appeal, but the truth is that there are pretty great cameras to be had for less than $3000, so spending five and a half grand for yesteryear's Leica (remember, 230k screen, no LV, no AF) doesn't seem exactly sensible.

I also am somewhat horrified at the new Hasselblad prototype. The H5D looked decent, though not revolutionary by any means. But the Lunar doesn't seem to make much sense. But I hope that cooperation with Sony could bring some fresh development.

Given Hasselblad's contempt for their own customers (i.e., orphaning the owners of their flagship medium format D-SLR by changing it to a proprietary closed system unable to take 3rd party backs), it actually makes a certain sense for them to go all in. Turn their product into a pure 'Veblen good', rather than even pretending objective utility.

Another great name falls to the wayside. In my film days we shot Mamiya's, perfect for portraiture, however we new that those shooting Hasse's had a slightly better camera and slightly better lenses, even if you had to use a No 1 soft on close ups. What we see today is not a company trying to save them selves in a rapidly changing market but a company who has lost there way completely. Hasselblad is no longer about building something that is "photographically" better but simply making it look prettier. "We pimp your camera". This is more then just fleecing money out of stupid rich people, this is bringing a great camera name into disrepute, destroying years of high quality craftsmanship and the pursuit of achieving better cameras. Here is your Nex7 sir we added a bit of wood for you so the other Sony buyers will know you have a bigger______ (add your own word).

I love the look of this Hasselblad turned Nex-7. Reminds me of the laser guns in the sci fi shows from the fifties... Certainly, tastewise not worse than Pentax K-01. Also, it appears they want to do something along this lines to the new a99.

Leica M -- while not completely adverse to the new naming convention, I can't help it remind me of the Fritz Lang movie.

Also, I note that the retro "Visoflex" name has been revived for the EVF. Which, btw, looks and specs an awful lot like Olympus's VF2. Is it one and the same?

But anyway, a reminder that the rangefinder-to-awkward-SLR thing has been done before, by... oh, yes: Leica.

However, I can see how the prospect of "M11, M12..." etc., would seem a tad unwieldy for Leica's branding brains. Maybe, a la Nikon and Canon and others, they feel multiple digits are less prestigious. But they'd already used "MD" (which anyway would have been the butt of jokes about Leica's customer base, and otherwise should have been used beginning w/ the M8). But just "M" is a copout, and reminds me of Coca-Cola Co.'s misguided attempt to downsize one of the most successful brands ever to simply "Coke".

And what's the next "M" going to be called? And why even touch "S2, etc." at all?

btw, I think the intention is to offer the M-E alongside the M9 and M9P. Don't ask me why.

Mike, Mike, Mike... You have finally disappointed me. I was so looking forward to your ROTFL-worthy take on the new Hasselblad, especially with the gift of those recycled 1960s audio-kit knobs.

But perhaps you're right merely to shake your head in sadness. That is truly one awesomely bad piece of Hasselbling. What were they thinking?

Mike

Probably what really happened at Hasselblad was that their CEO read some of your articles on Veblen Goods here on TOP and thought to himself: "Hey, that sounds like a useful concept..."

Seriously, though, it amazes me that the press release talks about a collaboration to "achieve technical and engineering breakthroughs in various photographic technology challenges" - and then they announce THIS ?!?!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, Kodak used a Belgian made chip in its first dSLR.

No where I can see is the absence of an AA filter mentioned for the new M, previously responsible for much of the quality from the M8/9 range. With the Nikon offerings bringing this to the fore the silence is odd but what a fuss about hitting iso 6400 as if this is cutting edge. When you see what Hasselblad are doing though you wonder if Victor would own up on the flight back from Photokina to being the camera.

I suppose that by the "more digits = less prestige" logic of camera naming, no digits at all must seem ultra-prestigious. Perhaps some day the new Leica will have no letter either, just a dot.

I note that the Leica "M" has live view. I can hardly wait for the first sightings of someone shooting with an M, holding it out at arm's length, squinting at the LCD in the daylight. The howls of sacrilege should be impressive indeed!

Me thinks the reason for the new naming convention is an acknowledgement that they will now need a new model every year. It took Leica more than a half century to have 7 models. With Digital's requirement of annual updates, in the not too distant future they they might have the Leica M48. Not quite as nice as the Leica M8.

Somebody probably answered in the comments awaiting moderation, but if not: the framelines on the M(10) are illuminated with an LED instead of the illumination window.

Ack, a $5,000 camera, with a $100 18-55mm kit lens on.

Stupid (and poor) me, that would be perfectly in line with the thought process of the target consumer of this monstrosity.

Did they make the M-E ugly on purpose?

@Stephen F. Faust

In the 'M-nothing' the framing lines are LED-iluminated as in the M9-Titanium. No window is therefore needed.

The sensor will be key for the success of the M. Somehow it has now become an 'standard' CSC (CMOS, live-view, spot and matrix-metering, EVF, loupe and peaking to help focus...) and so it competes against all those cameras already able to use M-lenses. For the moment, its only advantage is being full frame. If the sensor does not live up to the expected standards the camera may fail in the market.

As for the Hasselblad debacle... I couldn't believe my eyes!

My God, what Hasselblad just did id SO pathetic ... There is literally NO added value in that design. It doesn't take a camera company to make a wooden grip ...

The Leica M - v.10, intro 12, prod 13, model 240 - will have LED framelines similar to the M9 titanium special edition shown a could of years ago. How they might be manually selectable has not shown up on the radar. Leaving off the lever seems stupid to me, especially since they made a big deal of previewing other focal lengths in years and models past.

The M-E seems identical to the M9 except for the lack of the lever and the various shell identifiers (no lettering; grey paint) that let everyone know that this is the 'cheap' model. Why not just keep producing the M9 and reduce the price? Seems a lot more saleable to me.

The big thing in my estimation, since I never was an R shooter, is that finally the new M is likely to have up to date processing capabilities with the Maestro chip, and lower noise at higher ISOs as well as a decent LCD. Seems like on the third try they might truly have a digital successor to the great film cameras.

If I purchase my Hassy through one of your links will you issue a retraction?
;-)

When you categorize cameras the next time, the new Hassleblad wins ugliest hands down!

As was pointed out above, Apple has been doing this for many of its products - the iMac, Macbook Pro, Mac Pro, and now iPad... and those are all on yearly or nearly-yearly release schedules. I believe that some true Mac aficionados refer to their Macs using model numbers like the ones listed on this page:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1635

Well it's about time; it took Leica long enough to figure this out though. The lowbrow chronological numbering system is perfectly fine for Canon, Nikon, or Pentax, but since all Leica Ms are superb photographic instruments, what's the point of trying to distinguish between perfection. Simply "M" will suffice.

Now this is interesting. 3/4 of the images claiming to be the the "m10" have the frame illuminator window -- but the one on the Leica site does not, and I have to consider that to be definitive now that it's been announced.

Might make sense to use LCD rather than ordinary optics illuminated with environmental light -- but it's weird they don't address that, so I understand how deeply puzzled people are!

Am I the only one who kept reading "CMOSIS" as "ΦMOSIS", or did you moderate all the others out?

As for the Hasselbald... if Aston can do brand-bastardization (to wit, the Cygnet, or the latest phone) why couldn't Hasselblad?

(Carl Blesch is right about the iPad - yet, to many's surprise, Apple didn't follow suit and gave a number to the new iPhone.)

Sounds like Leica is taking a page out of Apple's playbook. Macbooks never had specific names for new models, and Apple dropped their numbering system on the iPad line after the iPad 2. But yes, annoying all the same.

Mike,
1. The 911 has remained the 911 for 40 years.

2. If Leica dropping the numbers keeps the resale prices up, I'm OK with that.

3. The iPhone 5 will be the last numbered phone, Steve told me.

Mike, hold the sarcasm, you know you want one.

The release of the Leica M also makes the (previously oddly named) Leica M Monochrom name more understandable.

The Leica M Monochrom CCD sensor is made by Truesense Imaging (neé Kodak) so one might imagine them using a CMOSIS sensor in a future Leica M Monochrom. I presume these will move together in future.

I presume the lack of an Leica M10 is a trademark issue: someone already holds a trademark in the camera business on M10 (and wasn't willing to sell or asked too much). The irony of Leica forcing Olympus to change the Olympus M1 to Olympus OM1 has already been mentioned.

If I were sure that Hasselblad had a genuine marketing disaster on their hands with the new 'bling, I might invest in a fully pimped-out model, leave it in the box, and see what it might be worth in 10 years...but what about the batteries?

The coming Leica M looks promising: weather proofing, slightly more pixels, more powerful buffer, better battery, optional electronic finder, etc... I will probably buy one.

But oddly enough, I do not find it very pretty... I guess ugliness is fashionable.

I guess Fuji will soon follow and start naming their firmwares "the NEW firmware."

What Michel said.

Comment of the month... because of Mike's riposte.

Some really unfunny sarcasm Mike.

The Leica M is the only way you are going to get full frame in such a small package. You may not want FF, or you may be happy lugging around a clumpy DSLR, but that's beside the point. If you want it it, this is it. If you are wedded to other concepts, fine, but why be tedious about it?

Really though, I just don't understand the negativity. On paper, at least, it is a real improvement on the M9, which is a camera admired by many who use it, addressing almost all the longed-for improvements yearned for by some. It hasn't even gone up in price!

Everything about the time tested rangefinder is there, only now there is a much better screen, live view, which will likely be better than on almost all DSLR's, and if you want to, when needed, you can use a macro, a telephoto or a zoom, and it will still be lighter than any FF DSLR.

Though the add on VF is not the most elegant of solutions, it adds flexibility, and unlike the one in the Fuji or Sony, can be upgraded when EVF technology improves.

The price is high as always with Leica, and I'm not even sure if I'll buy one, even though I really do miss my old M6's. I currently use a superb, but clunky Canon 5D11, and I'm yearning for something smaller, but when I look at the Fuji and Sony alternatives there are always important things missing - only an EVF and large kludgy lenses in proportion to the body in Sony, some strange artefacts and suspect manual focusing in the Fuji, and decreased focus isolation in all APS and M43 cameras. The Leica still stands out.

I think Jack is onto it.

The M line needs to keep pace with electronic evolution, but that evolution happens at a speed that renders devices 'out-dated' far too rapidly for the Leica price point. You don't want to drop $7-10k on an M10 and feel like you need to do the same again in three, four or even five years. Reduce it to it's system name, 'M', keep the system up to date but don't rub it in the faces of the older edition owners.

Mark Roberts - the big advantage of Leica's live view is that critical focus for studio/tripod shooting is possible - and critical framing too - both of which are not possible with a external viewfinder and rangefinder camera. It adds versatility.

I was not a fan of the 18mp CCD sensor in the M9. But 24mp is enough for my purposes; and hopefully the CMOS sensor is a good one. With the added possibility of an EVF and R lenses, for those rare occasions longer lenses are need - e.g. travel - an, um, M might well find a home with me.

Apple has their "i"
Leica has their "M"

Oops...

We have "The M"

Mike Johnston, far more preferable;
consistent and always identifiable by the
company he keeps and retains.

As for the others you have your numbers game,
however "we" know better, and always did.

So Leica and Hasselblad are now officially irrelevant to actual photography. TLR Rolleiflexes are still being made, I can buy film and chemicals for my OMs, fixed lens RFs and Chamonix. Anyone see the irony?

The Porsche 911 has kept its name across a half century of revisions, and Porschephiles refer to them by the internal model number, most recently 964, 993, 997, 991.

Leica has dubbed new M Typ 240, and the M-E Typ 220. So there you are.

Hi Mike,

My concerns are:

1. Focussing the R zoom lens say a 280 or 180 through the EVF won't be fun if I am not mistaken. Would be difficult with a 2x or 1.4x APO extender.

2. Can we use 3 Cam Lens on the R-Adapter M? Maybe without EXIF lens recognition

Too much money to spend just to use R lens. Going the Leitax route with D800E seems to be a better solution for R shooter who wants digital. Otherwise stick with the Leicaflex and R bodies for film.

For color, I like the M9. MM seems to be better for B&Ws although I prefer Tri-X.

I do not care about the videos on DSLRs and compacts.

Thanks

Wait. So this costs like a used M3 plus how much film and processing and scanning again?

So from now on I can get a cheap(ish) leica M, stick my Olympus VF-2 on it to save more money and get the adoring looks from the uninitiated?
I think I rather spend my money on booze, women and a Pen!

we all know that leica is going to make us wait 1 1/2 years for a prettier version of the m-e, right?

I don't think the Stutz Blackhawk is much worse than a lot of the concept cars that Detroit stylists have perpetrated over the years ... although it is appalling to behold, as is that camera.

So, will MacDonalds (McDonalds? However you spell it) now sue them for using "M" as a trademark.

Re the Leica and Hasselblad launches. In a word: decadence.
Roy

One afterthought, now that Google has gulped Nik:

The Monochrom came bundled with SilverEfex 2.

Will the new M-E come bundled with Snapseed? Or is that reserved for the M only?
Or will there be a Leica-specific version of Snapseed, dubbed
Das Wesentliche: Schnappsaat,
for a scant USD 199 (iomega Bernoulli drive only; download option for merely USD 365) ?

Presumably, the one-off M extravaganza to be designed by Sir Jonny Ive next year will be the last Leica issued with a Mac or iOS version of Snapseed, before Google decides it's all Android.

I guess Leica is going for the same naming-model as Apple, having different series of devices (MacbookAir, -Pro, iMac, iPod Classic, Nano etc.) and the same names for new versions of each, just specify with time of release, eg. "late 2013". I can't see the problem with this logic, except you will have to specify release time in adds for the devices. I think it is far tidier than Nikon/Canons seamingly random logic.

I used to have a digital Leica, the M8.2. I felt like a fool, frankly, carrying around over $5K worth of gear, even though I bought it used. And that was when the image quality was arguably as good or better than APS-C of the time. When I'd be shooting in New York or Chicago, I had a number of people come up and ask is that a Leica? They were organized into two distinct groups. Middle-age guys who looked like college professors and 20-something kids who were going to get a BA in fine arts. Sold it to the next chump on ebay, UV/IR filters and all.

So who really uses these things anymore to create publishable work? Seriously, who does? It's not all the chatterers on DPR and Leica Forums. Does anyone know of a non-subsidized working photographer who actually uses an M9 as a primary working tool?

I'm not trying to be mean or provocative, but I know a lot of working photographers and no one has one. I've seen them a lot in Hong Kong, and know that they sell in Japan, but here in the US they seem to be the exclusive province of the stereotyped upper-income suburban professional.

"...M9... Incredibly good digital files—when I got the shot..."

"...but ultimately only appreciated fully by a few well-heeled collectors...".

"... D800... Has a flash system. In fact, it is a full system."

Pardon? I finally jumped the wagon and bought a used M8. Far from perfect, but I don't see why you can get the shot with an M3, but not with an M8, despite the annoying wake-up time. Actually I like the M8 more than I thought I would, although I hate all the design-flaws that Leica should have avoided, especially Leica. But I love rangefinders, and Leicas are the only digital RFs at the moment, so no choice.
Finally, if you appreciated an M3 I cannot see how to enjoy a D800. Neither why you suddenly need a flash-system. Was the M3 a system-camera? If you like RFs and the style of shooting that they lend themselves to, there is just not a single reason that speaks for an SLR. Really weird.

The problem with Leica is sure not the camera-design, but that they are the only company at the moment that has the guts to produce real cameras (RF, labelled dials for aperture and shutter-speed, done), yet sell them as luxury goods.

The CMOSIS PR

http://www.cmosis.com/news/press_releases/new_leica_m_uses_cmosis_24_mp_cmos_image_sensor

outlines some of the reasons for choosing CMOSIS rather than say Sony.

They seem to be:

  1. Exculsivity. Custom product made for Leica only.
  2. Made in Europe" i.e. Designed in Belgium; Fabbed in France; (packed in Asia :-) and installed in a German camera. Helps with marketing.
  3. Technical issues in dealling with (very) off-normal rays of the sort you get from the edges of wide-angle M and R lenses.
The final point is most interesting.

The problem with (very) off-normal rays from non-telecentric lenses is they hit photodiodes at an angle they reduce the amount of photoelectrons they create (causing vignetting) before they pass into an adjacent photodiode (causing crosstalk). Leica needs to deal with this sort of issue (more than other camera makers) because they have legacy M mount lenses.

Mike,
For those of your readers who really want to understand the new M, I would suggest this well illustrated link from Photokina:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/278-Photokina-2012-Day-1-The-Leica-M

Seems Leica has it pretty well figured out. This will sell pretty well for a niche camera. I hope some reader orders it via your Amazon link. After all, if you don't like it, there is a 30 day return policy that a friend actually used on returning an M8. Note that the M is not on Amazon as of this morning, but they do have one M9 left.

Please don't make fun of the "M-1". I trained on an M-1 rifle preparing for the Vietnam War. Don't figure out how old I am. ;-) Sam

Well, I've been a Leica shooter for 19 years, and I DID rush out to buy the M9 when it came out....

But I'd have to agree with your comments about the New M (let's call it that) being "a lot closer to a conventional mirrorless camera" and a "passable imitation of an ordinary DSLR."

Yes, I'm sure the New M is a wonderful camera, but I'm not rushing out to buy one. At the risk of being a Luddite, seems to me that the New M has lost one of the characteristics which made Leica Ms so attractive to a certain set--their bare-bones minimalism (albeit very well-made minimalism).

The nice thing about a classic M was that all you got was a shutter speed dial, focus and aperture ring, and a built-in light meter (I started out with the M6), but other than that, it was up to you to work to get the shot right. The classic M forced a photographer to rely on his or her own native skills, and gave one a photographic "work out", so to speak. Certainly kept your skills sharp and in shape, and did not forgive slackness or lack of expertise. Yes, shooting an M was fun for the kind of person who would like road-racing in a stripped-down, manual-shift 1950s MG sports car, rather than tooling around in an auto-everything Lexus...

True, the M9 has auto exposure and a few other features, being digital and all, but it was just enough, and not too much to keep it from being the classic Leica DIY camera (I've used mine in manual mode most of the time, anyway). Yes, a Leica M was all muscle and no fat, so to speak, and a welcome vacation from your hyper-automated, do-everything DSLR...

But with the New M...Live View? Video? add-on EVF? I dunno. Never cared for video on a still camera--don't use it--and Live View on a rangefinder just seems kind of superfluous to me. I mean, all these features are pretty much standard on cameras costing 1/7 the price of the New M (the Olympus EM-5 comes to mind--and a pretty good camera it is, too).

So, while the New M may be a wonderful camera, I'll hold off for now (aside from the fact I don't have a spare $7,000 lying around). Just doesn't seem like that much of a "real M" to me. So I'll just soldier on with the M9 for now--and if I really need those "new features" the New M has, I'll just grab my EM-5...

Lunatic!

But, but, if the M (or ME) has no frameline selector it is uninteresting or me, because then I can't use the 40 Rokkor without modification, which I can't do, because I also use it on the lovely CLE ;-)
This would be an epic fail - sorry for saying epic, hehe.

So when is Leica coming out with the digital 'R' camera?

Disillusioned old European Brands.

Long time ago, I remember a marketing
lecture about the strength of old european brands and why they can hold and compete globally, even with a very high premium.

I am not sure whether this mindset is still valid now, but I think that's what Leica, Hasselblad thinks. Package anything, name anything, anyway they will buy our brands (not our products).

PS: I like Hasselblad brands and interested in build a brand new set of classic 503, but OMG this Hasselbling announcement really changed my mind.

@Richard Newman,

I'm not sure if that was facetious or not, but they already tried like 10 years ago with the digital-modul-R.

Mike, Lets forget about the horrible Hasselblad!

Don't be too quick to sneer at the Leica ME though. I doubt very much that anyone will lose face using one just because there is a posher model, with lots more pixels, on the way. After all nobody rubbishes users of second hand Leicas just because they are cheaper than a new one. The real test will be whether it's any good as a camera, in combination with the lenses which many potential buyers probably have already. Get somebody who buys one to write you a review. Leica really should get rid of that "go faster" red dot though. My 1959 IIIg works perfectly well without one!

What impact does the Leica M-E have on the M9 second hand sales price?

Does it push the second hand price down because the M-E is essential the same but newer camera so its worth more than a second hand mint M9?

Or does it push the M9 second hand price up because it's "top tier" M9 not the "second tier" grey-topped camera?

Inquiring minds (with too much time on their hands) want to know.

I've been curious about second hand prices too! I hope to have the chance to chat next week to someone who is currently at Photokina. I've forgotten what price M8s were new but they, especially mint ones, still command quite good second hand prices, regardless of the scare about screen failures.

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