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Wednesday, 17 September 2008

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G10: I had been hoping Canon would get the drop on everyone by including an APS-C sensor, but for that I guess we'll have to wait for the G11. Still looks like it might be a handy piece of kit though.

Impressive but I'll stay with my old 5D.

Actually, why can't I have my old sensor changed to the new one?

"Actually, why can't I have my old sensor changed to the new one?"

Peter,
You can. Just give them $2,700, and they'll send you the new sensor, wrapped in a camera.

Mike J.

Seriously, they might be able to do a sensor swap...for maybe $10,000 or so. Maybe more.

Mike J.

Quite curious about the verdict from pros:

Will this be enough to actually eclipse the stars from Nikon?

Or are we only seeing Canon playing catch-up?

The only features I've read which looks truly exciting is the possibility to perform adaptation of the pixel sensitivity in order to increase the IQ under high contrasts. But other than that, I don't see leadership anywhere.

(Or maybe I am too picky?!)

"(Or maybe I am too picky?!)"

Cateto/Jose,
Of course you are. But you're not alone. We all are.

Mike J.

Video, mega scene modes, "full"-frame, we have all the gizmos now. No more excuses. Can't blame lousy boring pictures on the equipment anymore.

My 5D will pass into its fourth year less than two weeks from today. My first impression of the 5DII news is more interest in the D700, and further as a starting model of my expectations from Canon in this category.

The new EF 24mm f/1.4L II lens announcement is buried in the 5D press release. That lens is pretty exciting if it is better than the current 24mm f/1.4 lens

I had been planning on switching to Sony or Nikon this fall , but now I'm reconsidering.

I'll be curious to see how the Sony, Nikon and Canon 21.1-MP cameras compare. A good 24mm f/1.4 lens would be a huge factor if it is half good in the corners.

Too bad that neither of these has a swiveling lcd.

I may still buy the new 5D, but the price is a bit more than I'd like to pay (especially because I'd have to buy into a new system -- the Pentax FF seems, alas, a distant dream). I was hoping that someone would finally bring out a $2,000 (or under) full-frame body.

I'm sure we'll get there eventually, but I was hoping that the $2K barrier would be broken this time around. Competition being what it is, I thought that someone would've brought out the cheapo, frills-free FF by now -- I think they'd sell boatloads of these. Oh well; I'll keep saving my pennies (or maybe pick up the original 5D).

As for the G10, I agree with the "what's the point?" sentiment. What's that saying about putting lipstick on a pig (or was that a pitbull)?

Yay more shiny things!

As a recent buyer of the Canon G9, I am now quite happy that I didn't wait for the G10.

Image quality on the G9 deteriorates rapidly above ISO 200 and the G10, with its higher resolution sensor, is unlikely to do better.

About the only improvement that I see is that the lens now goes as wide as 28mm, but at the loss of range on the long end.

I'll reserve judgement on the "improved" optical finder until I actually take a look through it. The G9 finder is horribly inaccurate, but I'd rather have an inaccurate optical finder than no optical finder at all.

I don't know how many modes my G9 has, as I have yet to use it set to anything other than aperture priority or manual. Those two modes served me well with film for over 40 years and, as far as I'm concerned, that's all that I need to "master"

With just a little more effort, Canon could have given us a truly impressive p&s. Maybe it's time for me to consider M4/3 as an adjunct to my D-SLR.

G10

The LCD goes from 230K to 460K? Wow! 28mm at the wide, great. Bigger and heavier????, no. An actual grip, OK. 14.7 MP......?, ehh.

The 28mm for me is the big one, though the G9 is just fine for now, as I'm still trying to master its intricacies.

Oh, where have you gone, Joe Nikon?

This is yawn tastic. The biggest thing of note is the video which if the Nikon jellyvision version is anything to go by is nothing to get overly excited about.

I was hoping they would at least be trumping my 1DsII but I see nothing compelling about it.

There is a massive opportunity here for Nikon to come out with a hi-res, compact (no integral grip), bomb proof pro spec body (100% view finder, weather proofing etc etc). Oh yeah and no video please :(

Never mind the camera, who's the honey? Seriously though, I'd really like to try one of these 5dII's with the new Zeiss lens' if the quality of the ZM on my leica is anything to go by......) Looks like my 1dsMkII just halved in value (again. The deal breaker will probably be the 10Mp RAW mode (for weddings). I couldnt shoot a full wedding at 21Mp.

G10...

Oh, how I long for a fast lens with modest zoom range, APS-C sensor, a usable optical viewfinder and low noise at higher ISOs. This is getting closer to the M8 killer of my dreams but it's not quite there yet.

For 500 bucks? What the hell, I probably buy one anyway.

I have alot of AI-s Nikkors.
What i want is a serious price war, to drive the D700 price far enough down so I can think about getting one.

If DPR is correct, the G10 doesn't do RAW. What on earth were they thinking?

Tim,
According to Canon, there IS a RAW mode.

Mike J.

I recall an article about the Zuiko 40mm from Photo Techniques, when you were the editor, which talked about how it became rare after many were bought up for conversion to motion picture lenses. Now, with a Zuiko-to-Canon converter, we could put our 40s on the 5D Mark II, shift into movie mode, and see what the charm was.

"I was hoping that someone would finally bring out a $2,000 (or under) full-frame body."

Keep an eye out for 5D MkI bodies on regular retailers and e-bay, and you'll sure find one when the MkII is released. It costs $2,350 new and $1,900 used on BH already.

As one of those people that the 5D is aimed squarely at (non pro semi serious amatuer). I have looked at the few samples out there and now wish I had jumped on the 5D at $1900 instead of waiting for the 5D mkII.

I thought the 5D MKII would be a D700 killer but alas, it isn't. It's probably a good camera but I'm not seeing anything in the samples that makes me want to part with my 40D and money.

These are both worthy and predictable extensions. Personally, I wish that Canon had resisted packing so many more pixels on each of these cameras.

The best new deal for weekend/family shooters, however, seems to have been lost in the noise. The new SX10 IS (and the non-U.S. SX1 IS) feature 10 mp CMOS sensors and also feature 1080p video recording. If I were looking for a single-lens, extremely high-quality camera for a modest price, this is exactly what I'd likely grab.

BTW, to those who suggest that Canon "scrambled" to stick video facilities into its new still cameras to compete with Nikon I reply, "Bwa, ha, ha." The inverse is far more likely. Canon has a long and excellent history in video camera technology. Nikon has, err let's see, NONE! ZERO! NIL! So it was probably Nikon that did the scrambling.

Mike Wrote:
"There's also a high-DR mode and automatic falloff correction (I assume with JPEG only?)"

Well, like picture styles, you can probably get it in RAW mode if you use Canon's RAW converter.

As for putting new wine (sensor) in an old skin (5D) - I guess that the sensor is pretty tightly coupled to the DIGIC chip. You would need a new sensor *and* the new DIGIC chip *and* a new card interface *and* a new LCD.

OK, I've seen some better samples now, so it has some IQ. I guess since it won't be readily available until November we'll get to seem more samples and read reviews before then anyway.

I'm a working pro, and for me the new 5D mk2 is the bees knees! Video may not be important to many, but as someone who is producing content for the web on a daily basis, the ability to make video with my existing camera and lenses is an absolutely amazing development that many of us get the impact of right now. The expanded iso's are also fantastic also as I use the higher end all of the time, and being able to go further is a total boon to me.

As the manufacturer that made full frame viable and affordable with the 5D, one has to give credit to Canon. It took Nikon 3 years to catch up to and slightly nudge past in image quality over the 5D. It remains to be seen just how good this new version will be, but I have no doubt that it will be better than my current 5D, which in many respects is better than my 1Ds mk2. Their commitment to great prime lenses is also quite admirable, I'm a 98% prime user, and no other camera maker besides Leica is currently producing high quality and high speed lenses.

Complain about this or that, yawn, dismiss, whatever. I'm thrilled at the prospect of being able to use this great new tool to make images.

Mike,

You're undoubtedly right that most owners won't master all the capabilities of the G10. But won't that be the case for just about any DSLR and most other compacts? Modern cameras are built to appeal to as much people as possible, and satisfy their wishes. So they build it all in.

Which is a long way for saying: I don't understand your, quite negative, comments.

Sure, I have my doubts on that sensor; I think many people wished Canon had stuck to 12MP and used the R&D budget on noise prevention. And 26 scene modes are a bit over the top.

But apart from that, it promises to be a very good camera. I've played aroung with a G9 some time ago, and was very impressed with the ease of use and the responsiveness of it. Or am I missing something?

From many of the comments so far, you'd think Canon never does market research and doesn't have a clue what their customers really want. I'm personally relieved that Canon's upgrades are so incremental. It means I can continue to be happy with what I've got. That's what we all really want, right? To be happy?

Another one bites the dust. First the disappointing P6000, and now the weight gaining (it weighs 50% more than an LX3) and unneeded pixel gaining G10. Just waiting to see if Sigma has figured out how to make the DP1 replacement (if there is one) perform at the speed of an entry level P&S, or if (and this is probably too much to hope for) Olympus introduces a micro 4/3rds that is actually kind of "micro". If not I will order an LX3.

I'm surprised at all of the complaining going on about the 5DII. For me it's a dream camera. I've got the current 5D right now, which I love, and I've only had two main complaints. 1) it's a dust magnet, 2) sparse feature set (i.e. things like auto-ISO).

The new 5D addresses that and much more. If the high ISO performance is better than the 50D, which is a reasonable expectation, then this camera is going to be an incredible low-light performer. The IQ and level of detail at ISO 100 will be stunning.

3.9 fps? MORE than enough for me. I cannot remember one time where I have ever missed a shot because my camera couldn't take more than 4 frames in a second.

9 point AF? I came to the 5D from the Pentax K10D, and I was blown away by how fast and accurate the 5D AF was compared to the 5D. I've never had a complaint about it at all. Plus, now I can calibrate each of my lenses, which should give even better results!

And of course, the HD video. As an expecting father, I have to say that I am super excited about this. The quality is simply amazing from the samples I've seen, and the ability to have extremely narrow DOF (like in the video Mike linked to) looks like so much fun! To me this is worth the upgrade alone.

Finally, dust has driven me crazy on the 5D. The self-cleaning sensor of the 5DII is also enough to make me upgrade alone.

The price of $2700 seems quite reasonable to me. What's everyone complaining about?

While the 5DII itself doesn't blow my socks off, the fact that Canon is updating their fast wide-angle primes -- now with a new coating akin to Nikon's amazing nano-coating -- just draws more attention to the holes in Nikon's lens system. The Zeiss lenses with no-fuss metering just add to this. The speculation that Nikon is "done" for 2008 is getting more and more frustrating...

Based on Canon's G10 Press Release, it has a RAW mode.

I'm sitting tight and waiting for prices of the old 5D to bottom out. Old 5D is still a great camera and the cheapest way into full-frame digital photography. For me full frame is not about noise levels and high ISO, it is more about DOF and lens performance.

I shot my latest entire fine art photo series - http://www.zekek.com/stills/ entirely on a 5D and couldn't be happier. Then again, I'll still be buying the 5DMII the second I can get my stinky mits on one!

I'm excited about the 5DMk2... If Canon is right about the "Highest level of image quality", then it will put to bed any concerns I had about the original 5D being a one-off sweet-spot camera.

I have often wondered if the 5D hit a perfect combination of sensor size/megapixels/pixel size to give us these wonderful pictures... I was having nightmares that Canon could never quite capture that magic again!

I've never loved a camera as much as I love my 5D, and I hope the Mk2 can live up to that!

I know the feeling, Jay. I am just waiting for it to happen with the future D800 :)
About the G10: There is no love lost

Wow. I don't consider myself a canon fanboy (most of my serious personal work is still shot on Mamiya 7 or Mamiya 645), but I'm honestly baffled by the "yawntastic" comments from Tim, Joe, and Cateto/Jose.

None of us have seen any real results from the 5dII yet, but at the least we've gotten a size increase of about 74%, or about 32% on a side. That translates into a native-resolution 12x18" print at 300dpi, or very nearly 16x24" at 240dpi. That's potentially amazing.

Considering images from an Xsi and the sample images from the 50d, noise results should be better than the original 5d. I've shot modern dance performances that seem to combine fast motion and incredibly low light; if I can get shots at ISO3200 similar to the original 5d's quality at ISO800, I'd be very happy.

Until we get a non-Bayer sensor, a much longer tonal range, capture rates like the Casio speed-demons with buffers to match, or a monochrome sensor, no camera is going to be truly groundbreaking for fine-art or landscape photographers. I'm puzzled, left wondering what other people would have wanted out of the 5dII.

Myself, I would have liked to have seen a lighter-weight body, but this is going to have me scrimping pennies in order to afford not only the new body, but probably better lenses as well.

Sounds like this is a good time to pick up a 5D at bargain basement prices....the price will likely go down even more now that it's successor is announced.

If the 5DII comes anywhere close to living up to Canon's press release, it's going to be a heck of a camera -- better IQ than a 1DsIII? And I'd assume that it would at least match the original 5D for high ISO performance (if it doesn't there is going to be some serious screaming from Canonites.) I'm a longtime Nikon fan and user, but this seems to be to be a good step beyond the D700.

JC

Why, oh, why does Canon not offer a 3:2 format option on its compacts!? If a G10 is a pro's backup, aspect ratio is important.

I do stills and video, so I am very interested in this camera. I was thinking though - dust on the sensor in video - an interesting conundrum. That would be post processing at a whole new level.

I like the sample video using the tilt shift lens. Nifty.

Imagine what they could do with a 12MP full frame camera.

How many compact digital cameras offer 3 X 2 which after all is simply cropping the full frame. I do not disagree it would be a nice option, or a square option like Ricoh offers, but the real issue is why do the folks that make prints for the masses continue to offer primarily 3 X 2 as opposed to 4 X 3, which is what most folks shoot.

This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for when it came to a 5D replacement. Using live view with the camera on a tripod will be great and the added resolution will come in handy for fine detail in landscapes. Bigger, better screen on the back and ISO in the viewfinder. And the price isn't sky high, relatively speaking.

Not sure what people were expecting. This kind of resolution from Canon cost over $7k just yesterday.

With the G10, Canon seems to be listening seriously to suggestions and has taken steps to improve the G series over the past few models. First the RAW files were restored. Complaints about the lack of 28 mm range, inaccurate optical viewfinder, and grip have been addressed with the G10. The only disappointments for me, provided the other improvements were done well, is the small sensor, and lack of swiveling LCD screen (OLED, anyone?). I am going to take the G10 into consideration to replace my S70 (the last of the S series to have RAW files).
The 5D Mk.II looks to be a great camera. I can see the value of HD movies, but it would be cool to have the option of a similar camera without the live view and video at the saving of several hundred dollars, to slot between the 50D and the 5D Mk.II. But who knows, maybe the video will become something you cannot live without once you have tried it. No doubt the 5D Mk.II will be a sales success for Canon.

OK, after my first post, I looked at the "fetching honey" video sample. I don't know how I lived without video before!

One word: Crippled.

Flash sync of 1/200? Warmed over 9 pt AF?

About a day's worth of shutter lag and mirror blackout...

Why put out the best sensor ever with such a crappy shutter/mirror/AF system in front of it?

And video in a body without IS? What are they thinking?

I'm very interested, but it occurs to me that I should wait and see how well people like it after they buy it.

I agree there's a lot of complaining going on for what seems like pretty good camera. I've been waiting for this camera for some time as an upgrade to my now-ageing 20D and when I compare what was actually released with my hoped-for specifications, it doesn't seem that Canon missed the mark too badly:

- 16 MP full frame (actually exceeded on this point but the extra five megapixels don't mean much to me but nice to have anyway)
- High ISO capability equivalent to D3 (looks good on paper and given the claims Canon is making, seems like a sure thing)
- Full environmental sealing (based on the diagrams at dpreview.com, the environmental sealing looks alright -- probably close enough)
- Lightweight (800 g looks good)
- Basic video feature with at least 720p resolution and 10 minute videos with autofocus (well and truly exceeded)
- Improved AF (5DmII looks a bit disappointing in this area but probably acceptable considering most of what I'll be using it for. In any case, I'll probably get a second APS-C body with a faster frame rate as a backup in the next few years anyway)
- 5-8 fps (probably the only major disappointment. I wonder if they had kept the resolution to about 16 megapixels whether five or six frames per second would have been possible. Alternatively with the lower resolution RAW modes it would be nice if the frame rate increased proportionally.)
- Decent auto ISO feature and mirror lock-up button (okay so I was dreaming here because obstinate and paternalistic Canon was never going to give us this!)

Conclusion: definitely on my shopping list although I'm tempted to wait until after PMA next year for prices to come down a little and see a little more clearly where the DSLR market is heading...

No question the 5D had a lock on a "sweet spot" in terms of image quality - the real question, alluded to earlier, is.....can Canon do it again? If they can, (and that is not a reach at all) then this camera will be blindingly brilliant in quality of output and Canon......well,.... Canon will have just demonstrated the depth and breadth of their understanding of quality image capture.

No question the 5D had a lock on a "sweet spot" in terms of image quality - the real question, alluded to earlier, is.....can Canon do it again? If they can, (and that is not a reach at all) then this camera will be blindingly brilliant in quality of output and Canon......well,.... Canon will have just demonstrated the depth and breadth of their understanding of quality image capture.

Hi, fellow angry folks,
Guess what if Canon, and any camera makers for that matter, has had listened to all your requests and put them in one ultimate satisfying camera-video "pancake"?

It would have been at its wit's end to stuff up the next more satisfying pancake and gone or will be soon going broke when almost everyone have got the pancakes after a year or two. Otherwise, it will have to work really hard and longer to meet the then even more demanding hungry photographers like you...er...us.

In a commercial world as it is, yielding to all your requests in one go is never sustainable. You can mote them and expect Canon to realise some next time round though. So making them known is important.

G10: I think the G series is a bliss to use and responsive. And, come on, at least on paper the G10 offers gigantic bang for the buck. I noticed from the press release that the G10 "can track subject movement up to the instant of exposure, resulting in sharper photographs". If that really works well, I can't complain much for such a small camera. Some see G10 as a backup for the DSLR, which shall cost more IMO, while I think it is just a fun camera when bringing a heavy DSLR and lens is too inconvenient. It's very well balanced for its spec.

About video recording in dSLRs, there's something worrying me. Is this the end of Photo yes/Video no events/venues? Will all cameras be forbidden from now on in them?

That would be a real pity...

I find it odd that people are down on the 5D markII already, just based upon press releases and spec sheets. Seems, I don't know, kinda premature.

A recurring gripe I'm seeing is that the AF is still a 9-point system. After over 5,000 frames on my 40D with a 9-point AF system, I must say that if your pictures are out of focus, it's on you.

I find the 40D's 9-point AF more than adequate, especially on AI Servo and 6+ fps tracking birds. And you probably wouldn't use the 5D markII for something like that, anyway.

Overall, I tend to agree with the more positive comments above. Neither camera is perfect, neither camera is really what I want, but they both look like solid options that will make many photographers happy.

I did notice that, except for one picture shot at f/5.6, all of the G10 samples were shot at around f/4. I can only assume that this was done to limit the effects of diffraction on the samples. Putting that many photosites on a sensor that small must raise some issues. The model's eyebrows seem pretty smeared in the sample pictures (but overall, the pictures look pretty good).

I can not wait to get my hands on the new 5DII. The current 5D with the Canon 50/1.0 has been a marvel for low/no light shooting. I can't wait for the first full moon with the 5DII for some hand held shooting by moonlight.

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